Building a British Pattern 1800 Rifle (Baker)

[dave_person]

Hi,
I began this project months ago but did not take or post photos. We are so busy it is difficult to keep up with posting projects. Anyway, I am making a Baker rifle from a TRS parts set. It will be the first pattern 1800 rifle including the famous sword bayonet . I never handled and examined an original Baker. I've seen plenty of photos and have excellent references but never one in the hand. I have the plan printed by TRS, which is very helpful. Here is an original rifle but of a later pattern using a different patchbox design.

I've been working on this rifle in fits and starts since April but we had too much other work to do and I could not concentrate on it. The TRS pars look good and the stock appears to be English walnut.

This is a massively strong gun that is almost over engineered in my opinion. My first task was building the lock. A TRS lock parts set looks like this example when you get it (lock for Elliot carbine).

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Lots of work to do and it really helps to have a welder. Having a welder allows me to relax a bit because I can fix just about any mistake. The cast parts were pretty good but the plate was warped and after flattening the outside surface, much of the cast in stamping was gone. No matter, I will engrave it all back again.

First bit of advice is do not trust the witness marks on the lock plate. It helps to know something about lock geometry because you may need to ignore all of the witness marks as I did on this lock. Nonetheless, the parts were good castings and with a bit of work, the lock went together nicely. You really need a drill press to assure the holes are positioned and drilled correctly but not much else. I true up the sides of the tumbler spinning it on a wood turning lathe and holding a file on the tool rest. It works just fine if you are careful. The lock design is excellent. Note the lower flint cock jaw is about level when the lock is at halfcock.

That is usually evidence of good design and the jaws point down into the pan at rest. On the inside you can see nice precise fit of the parts.

Note the mainspring fully engages the toe of the tumbler when at rest.

When the lock is pulled to full cock, the lower leaf of the mainspring is almost straight

and the hook tucks up right into the instep of the tumble bringing it very close to the spindle axis of rotation.

That provides a mechanical advantage such that the force needed to draw the lock from halfcock to full is less that the force needed to draw the lock to halfcock. The lock should have a nice light trigger pull and because it has a fly detent, there is no risk it will catch at halfcock when fired. I have to polish up all the parts, engrave the lock plate, and then case harden them.

dave

 

[TFoley]

My shooting pal, Steve, has a Baker rifle built by Peter Dyson, using, we are pretty sure, TRS components. It took Mr Dyson about five years, BTW.

It looks VERY good and handles much the same as the real thing - having shot four of the real thing, I can say that with a degree of assurance. They are VERY clunky, and here I'm being charitable. The officers model had a trigger pull I swear was connected to the foundations of the Tower of London - around 25#.

One thing - the jet out of the touchhole is prodigious, to say the least. Lemme see will I find a movie I took a few years back. I'll post it on YT and you can see for yourself.

Original chamois leather patched ball -

 

[PathfinderNC]

Someone once said the English would never say (admit?) that they were influenced by the jaeger in regard to the Baker, but the resemblance is not hard to see.
Looking forward to watching this new project, Dave!

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Thanks TFoley for that information and I'd love to see the video.
Bob, they did copy from the German military jaeger rifles. Prior to developing the pattern 1800 they outfitted several companies with rifles purchased in Germany that look very much like the Baker. British gun makers usually emulated German makers when it came to making sporting rifles all through the 18th century.

dave

 

[TFoley]

Hi,
Thanks TFoley for that information and I'd love to see the video.
Bob, they did copy from the German military jaeger rifles. Prior to developing the pattern 1800 they outfitted several companies with rifles purchased in Germany that look very much like the Baker. British gun makers usually emulated German makers when it came to making sporting rifles all through the 18th century.

dave

After all, the king was the third Hanoverian king, and he imported troops, many of who fought for his government during the Revolution. The King's German Legion comes to mind, as do the Hessians - and others.

 

[Rudyard]

Hi,
Thanks TFoley for that information and I'd love to see the video.
Bob, they did copy from the German military jaeger rifles. Prior to developing the pattern 1800 they outfitted several companies with rifles purchased in Germany that look very much like the Baker. British gun makers usually emulated German makers when it came to making sporting rifles all through the 18th century.

dave

Dear Dave The' Pre Baker 'German rifles you mention are of the 1,012 made for the Emigre exiled Prince Eugene c 1799 these where very much what George Shumway called "A Jager Rifle'' as I showed him mine number is 174 Very like the well know' Pistor 'rifle held at West Point only they had B nets the bar much like the Baker hence the engraved numbering .I went to the RA specifically to examine the 6 or so rifles in the Study collection De Witt shews some in his book but dosnt give their numbers I have them now their main relavance being to affirm the quantity & thusly provenance of these 28" swamped Oct Brl of 20 bore.I loaded a 600 ball shot it years at Bisley MLAGB Short range matches . never a target rifle but good' figure of a man'. I loaned it Herman Benninghoff at De Witts instance took me years before I got it back, he was all about Revolt war but these rifles where Napoleonic . Prince Eugene was Nominally second in command at Waterloo but prouved useless. Of the German rifles at the Battle no mention.. .Peter Dysons butt box looks too big the first one had a stepped hinge end and have provision for a tool & a round patch box area. after the pre 1806 or so they went to a smaller tool box . The leather patched ball was used By the Percy Volunteers but since they didn't (Not the pre 1799) have Bakers rather the German larger bore rifles long and seemingly not favoured .There is an Excellent & definitive book on the Percys Volunteers not expensive put out by one of the Percys staff Bill Openshaw .My Baker was so' Bubbed' only the escution & the side plate remained every loop cut off lopped to half stock & a Springfield band ? jambed on . I had to make wooden patterns over size get cast then fettled the brass to fit the inlets . & by fluke I bought a lock at Allentown gun show 90$ and it fit right in detent & all . ammusingly the first shot at 100 yard popped between the mince pies of a photo of a berket called Gates noted anti gun sort couldn't repeat it ,but don't shoot it much .Well thats Me Baker erd out .
Regards Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Hi and thanks for looking,

I love your stories Rudyard. It seems after the American War there was a lot of heated discussion in the British Army about rifles and riflemen. The war concerning the French Revolution began the ball game and then Napoleon came along and really upped the discussion. This gun will have the compartmented patchbox with the stepped front. I have a question for you and TFoley. I assume the locks parts, plate and all, were case hardened. Did they ever leave the case colors as a finish or did they finish the locks with some sort of browning?

I engraved the lock plate replacing the cast in engraving that was wiped out. It came out well with the only rough spots where my cut lines intersected the residual cast-in engraving. You cannot wipe it all out because some is very deep and you would thin the plate a lot. So I keep some and merge my cut lines and letters.

The original locks were stamped not engraved, which adds a "machine-like" quality to them although the stamp was likely hand engraved when made. The double border lines are very close together, which requires good tool control. It came out fine and I will do the same on the flint cock. As far as I know there are no border lines on the battery or the top jaw.

dave

 

[Rudyard]

Hi and thanks for looking,

I love your stories Rudyard. It seems after the American War there was a lot of heated discussion in the British Army about rifles and riflemen. The war concerning the French Revolution began the ball game and then Napoleon came along and really upped the discussion. This gun will have the compartmented patchbox with the stepped front. I have a question for you and TFoley. I assume the locks parts, plate and all, were case hardened. Did they ever leave the case colors as a finish or did they finish the locks with some sort of browning?

I engraved the lock plate replacing the cast in engraving that was wiped out. It came out well with the only rough spots where my cut lines intersected the residual cast-in engraving. You cannot wipe it all out because some is very deep and you would thin the plate a lot. So I keep some and merge my cut lines and letters.

The original locks were stamped not engraved, which adds a "machine-like" quality to them although the stamp was likely hand engraved when made. The double border lines are very close together, which requires good tool control. It came out fine and I will do the same on the flint cock. As far as I know there are no border lines on the battery or the top jaw.

dave

Well far as I know there was no attempt to get coluor hardening as a finish they where case hardened once complete & cleaned bright . No 'browning' on any locks (That's a modern none sense based on the ease of "browning' the surface of cast locks .along with parting lines that would not be on any original item ) Lazee.!. The Stamp oh yes I do know a bit about stamps . They where hand cuts the stamp face today follows a Styllus , they follow the enlarged pattern. But what they did originally pre pantograph I'me unsure . Clever stuff are steel stamps Ile include a sample such as was used to create much smaller stamps . Sheffield had Silversmiths & Cutlers & tools that needed smaller stamps. Got boxes of the patterns they dated c 1900 to the 60s the firm moved and left them to be dumped .( Rudyard's too thrifty to let such useful curios go the waste )Re the neat double lines I think the tool was guided by a sort of Outrigger and the cutting face had two tips S x side .Thats my guess Re top jaw & 'Steel' back I don't think so Ile look . (By' Steel' you'd read 'Frizzen' the' Hammer isn't its a COCK. Goe' s with' Side nails' & 'Tang nails '& screws called' Pins 'AND crusty old gun makers !. The V111 type file cuts are so that once done a batch of innards you can reassemble the innard's that got case hardened . Trust that makes sense .
Regards Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Hi Rudyard,
Thank you so much for that information. It is very helpful. I breeched the barrel and mounted the standing breech. Installing the hook breech plug is really easy. You just paint the end with a Sharpie, screw it on and tighten until the black marks show it is seated in its shoulder and you are done. With the round barrel, no need to line up with any flat.

Then I fitted the standing breech, which was pretty easy as well. It required a little filing of the hook and tang and flattening the face of the standing breech using a sanding disk. With castings, you often have to get into nooks and crannies where there is flashing and I use my Dremel and die sinker's chisels for that. This standing breech has a large rectangular lug on the bottom that becomes the anchor for the ramrod spring and the forward part of the trigger guard. The barrel also needs a flat for the lock filed on one side indexed to the standing breech. So I mounted the standing breech and held it in place with masking tape and a clip.

Then I filed a flat on the barrel using the standing breech as the guide for perpendicular to the top.

The flat has to be perpendicular to the top of the barrel and perfectly straight and flat for the lock bolster. I found an internet site for a gun builder making a Baker. He had all these machines and dial calipers, and such to mill all these "critical" surfaces. It was impressive and he seems serious. Anyway, 1/2 hour with a good file and it is all done to satisfaction.

Now I begin inletting the barrel. I will probably solder the breech tang to the barrel and inlet it it as one unit but I have not decided yet. You can see the hole drilled by TRS for the lug on the standing breech. So its position is determined regardless of where the vent hole lines up with the lock.

We will see how it goes but I can assure folks, I am not worried about anything.

dave

 

[Rudyard]

Your the man!. I generally wedge the False breach with a bit of brass as a wedge. Impressive pre shape stock .I grabbed any seconds at F ship shoots when I could but mostly went from the plank .One customer sent me a barrel & a pre shape to make him a long rifle 'after ' Brong, Nice Rice barrel but importing such is now a pain .First time I met Mr Rice was when I was wandering about looking into suppliers. It was getting a bit dark when I reached his very rural door he greeted me with a 1911, quite reasonably . So I retired to make camp in a near by creek & called next day he was then part of L&R I once ask Bill Cox what it stood for? he said ''Loose & Rusty '' but it started as Liston & Rice .Same day I got to Bud Silers house he was having guest's at a BBQ but he took time to sell me lock kits ..Clever artisan was Bud Siler .Ive still got a Fort Hill pre shape be good for a French piece. But a pre shape of Pecatonica is part on in a Lancaster the rod hole rod had veered to the apron side but I managed to configure it back to the desired center under the side plate so 'What no one shall see , No one shall mind' . I made all my Baker patterns & got them cast in yellow brass .
Regards Rudyard

 

[TFoley]

Mr Person - are there any close-up photos you'd like me to get for you using Steve's excellent Baker rifle? It was as good a one-for-one copy of an officer's model rifle as Mr Dyson could make it, and he used his own genuine rifle to do it. Ten years ago this cost $7500 here in UK.

 

[Rudyard]

I knew Peter Dyson when he worked in an attic in Honley village He put a flint lock lock back to flint think he charged 5 pounds its long gone stocked in Kauri with a new Webley single barrel went at Reg Gees auction the' L shaped room!' I made the ungainly gun in Auckland sold it to a cutler in .Sheffield branch MLAGB . Unkind persons called him' Speedy' he was good at chargeing ,Wounded Buffalo's had no chance. I remember a Navy Arms double tarted up with gingerbread & given To Prince Charles (.we used the same stamp maker.) .There are NO 'Officers models' supplied by Ordnance Officers bought their own if they even carried one .The French had umpteen fancy guns for all ranks but NOT Ordnance .5 years to make a rifle,! 7'500 dumplings for a rifle !. I've made well over 200 guns of many styles & nations and never asked so much or took so long . Three ended up in National museums and another is due to add to that .Does that make me Queen of the May ? No!.
The Two who had a shop at the RA where left on consignment a longrifle I made for Richard Moore of Sharpes fame who reneged( he could be very obscure) ( They put telephone numbers on top of what I wanted out of it .saying "Oh but we think its worth that"(What they got to loose ?) little wonder it didnt sell they where plain greedy . So I took it back & flicked it off down south . Was just an old barrel so no ticket .made it in NZ lugged it to UK in the days pre 9/11 poop . Non of which is any fault of yours of course , I once push biked up to his shop to buy old bits he got in Belgium he wanted daft money & I left buying non . ' Speedy' he could be .
Regards Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Hi TFoley,
Thank you and yes there are some details I would like to see if any photos exist. One issue is the bayonet bar. Bailey states in his book on British military rifles that the lugs were dovetailed and then brazed. That would be like the front sight on Brown Besses. However, in all the photos I've seen of Bakers, the lugs do not look dovetailed but simply flush brazed to the barrel. On a pattern 1800 Baker up for auction recently, the gun originally had the sword bayonet and bayonet lug but was converted to take a socket bayonet. The barrel shows the brass spelter marks outlining the edges of the lugs but no apparent dove tail. I can do this either way but I would appreciate some advice and direction. I would also like to see more photos of the cheek piece. The precarved stock has an elongated cheek piece, which seems to be correct but I have seen some Baker's with more rounded and smaller cheek pieces. Anyway, those kinds of details are important to me. I would also like to see how much of a lip on the bottom of the nosecap extends above the ramrod groove. Thank you for the help and I appreciate any details you can share. I take the information to heart.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
More work done. I case hardened the lock parts except for the lock plate. I still have to drill it for the side nails. I packed the parts in a mix of wood and bone charcoal and heat soaked the pack at 1575 degrees for 3 hours. Then quenched the pack in water. The battery (steel, hammer) was tempered to 375 degrees and the other parts to 600 degrees.

While the lock parts were cooking, I inlet the barrel and standing breech. This was the easiest barrel and breech job I've ever done. Because it was clear where the standing breech was to be inlet, I could focus initially on just fitting the barrel because I could position it in front of the breech. It was an easy job taking no more than 90 minutes using a simple round scraper.

Then I inlet the standing breech. The first challenge was cutting a mortise for the long rectangular lug on the bottom. No big deal but it was impossible to determine its final position given the excess wood left at the breech from the machining. This is a task so much easier if the stock was not precarved. Anyway, it worked out fine and was one of the easiest breech inlets I've ever done. I found I did not need to solder it to the barrel before inletting. A mix of inletting it by itself with checking the mortise by mounting it on the barrel was sufficient.

dave

 

[Rudyard]

Hi,
More work done. I case hardened the lock parts except for the lock plate. I still have to drill it for the side nails. I packed the parts in a mix of wood and bone charcoal and heat soaked the pack at 1575 degrees for 3 hours. Then quenched the pack in water. The battery (steel, hammer) was tempered to 375 degrees and the other parts to 600 degrees.

While the lock parts were cooking, I inlet the barrel and standing breech. This was the easiest barrel and breech job I've ever done. Because it was clear where the standing breech was to be inlet, I could focus initially on just fitting the barrel because I could position it in front of the breech. It was an easy job taking no more than 90 minutes using a simple round scraper.

Then I inlet the standing breech. The first challenge was cutting a mortise for the long rectangular lug on the bottom. No big deal but it was impossible to determine its final position given the excess wood left at the breech from the machining. This is a task so much easier if the stock was not precarved. Anyway, it worked out fine and was one of the easiest breech inlets I've ever done. I found I did not need to solder it to the barrel before inletting. A mix of inletting it by itself with checking the mortise by mounting it on the barrel was sufficient.

dave

Well I must send you pics of my restored pre 1806 it was made with a B'net bar but its one of the ones altered for the Socket B net post 1815 . A plan to lessen the effects of the muzzle blast's on the 'Sword ' as we should call it . but the work being considerable they went for a lighter B net that clipped on the old B'net bar with a triangular blade .Still issued the old' Sword' Apparently the men liked their sword good for handy camp jobs !. OK unless I've goofed majorly I can send you the hopefully useful pics

 

[Rudyard]

ok view of wrists Baker& Prince Eugens rifle number 147, next ditto, note fill in over for original sight then later position of sight set back, the147 .b net number hard to see . rest different angles, last doesn't belong its of a rifle' After' Fred'r Bickle from Shumways booklet just fancied making one ,its a true Dock lock internally .Oh on pic two you can see the old fixing rear of the B net bar Ile check but cant notice any braze might be dressed off . can tou see the joint from the scarfe to restore the Bubba's handy work !
Regards Rudyard
PS no you cant its not shown if not by design R

 

[dave_person]

Hi Rudyard,
Great photos. Very helpful. I noticed on your Baker that the tail of the lock and side plate panels are nicely shaped and given a little flair. Most Bakers I've seen just come to a point with no tail. Is yours unusual Rudyard? I would prefer to shape the tails as done on your example. Also, how heavy are the mainsprings on the locks? Mine made from TRS castings takes 10-11 pounds to pull from rest to full cock. Is that enough of should it be stronger? If it needs more strength, I may have to forge a replacement spring, which is no problem for me.

Thanks for all your help Rudyard and TFoley. I enjoy learning about the details very much and especially like getting down into the weeds. I have a very high regard for British flintlock sporting and military guns.

dave

 

[Rudyard]

Hi Rudyard,
Great photos. Very helpful. I noticed on your Baker that the tail of the lock and side plate panels are nicely shaped and given a little flair. Most Bakers I've seen just come to a point with no tail. Is yours unusual Rudyard? I would prefer to shape the tails as done on your example. Also, how heavy are the mainsprings on the locks? Mine made from TRS castings takes 10-11 pounds to pull from rest to full cock. Is that enough of should it be stronger? If it needs more strength, I may have to forge a replacement spring, which is no problem for me.

Thanks for all your help Rudyard and TFoley. I enjoy learning about the details very much and especially like getting down into the weeds. I have a very high regard for British flintlock sporting and military guns.

dave

Dear Dave .Well the rifle is pre 1806 or5 one of them ,so the stockers had that ability & not rushed I expect .You can see the B,net boss under the set back muzzle I think only 2'000 or so of this older gun had the cut back for the Socket I seem to recall some B nets started as Duke of Richmond's patterns modified . My M' spring seems normal enough. Luckily Bubba missed that one boss he filed off every other loop & the sight's & robbed all but the escution & side plate but I think I got round that ok .How typical the Aprons are I cant say but its on the rifle so its' a Document '(& it didnt take 5 years to restore it !) .
Ive only made one Volunteer Baker I got barrels off Orian He described them as '' Bloody brutal Baker barrels " I suppose because they where out of his normal line . I Met Jesse Melot at F Ship when he just started out, I was shareing a booth with Ackermann he gave me a nice Gorget his Baker B' net Hilt is my wooden pattern I didn't get it back but he sent me slightly modified castings . I should knock up an E, I, Coy Baker saves me fitting the wrist escution ! (.They had Nock make them Fergussons ) That would be a challenge, Never made one but finnished one up for a Plumber from Conisbrough . Did make a flint BL on the' turn off 'principal ( To use up a nice but cut off too short ' second' of Peckatonices think he gave it me . Its a 50 cal used a nice Davis Twigg lock . long brl with Cannon muzzle. The idea is great , power full yes but too fiddly to reload in the bush so kept to my muzzle loaders . Still convinced these suppository systems wont ever catch on.
Regards Rudyard

 

[TFoley]

Mr Person - This advert from over here has details of a very fine Baker-style rifle with good pics of the cheekpiece side - take a look -

https://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/shop.php?code=24800

The 'T' before the 'Foley' stands for 'tac' or 'Terry'. either will do.