building secrets?

[str8sh2ter]

i don't know if this will take off or not.Alot of you guys have great talent for building.could you post some of the secrets to your building successes?ie; How you correct or cover up different common mistake?What are the most common mistakes you see in "beginner's "builds?What gafs have you done that you had to creatively correct? what's the best advice you were given when you started out or even along the way?
My pet peeves:how do you get the perfect radiuses on the lock panel moldings? what are the secrets to inlaying without gaps?
you get the jest of what i'm going for here.fire away or not. i just thought maybe others might also be interested.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Bevel everything.

 

[rich pierce]

The most common architectural mistakes by beginners:
1) using a precarve or kit stock and thinking it's shaped already
2) forends slab sided, to thick and not rounded all the way to the barrel
3) lock moldings too thick around lock
4)wood beside the tang not angled enough; left flattish, leads to #3 above
5) lock panel on sideplate side not lining up with top of side barrel flat, see #4 and #3 above
6)awkward transition at entry thimble
7) awkward transition from wrist to underside of lock panels
8) relief carving sort of pasted on looking an d too high by 2x
9) buttplate and guard edges left thick and flat looking
10) nosecap and ramrod groove not matched and ramrod end is hanging in space

Those are my top 10. All these can be avoided if you regularly consult IN PERSON with an experienced builder. Online doesn't get it.

 

[Bubba45]

Leaving too much wood on making for a bulky gun.

 

[wulf]

Very well said :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I think the biggest mistake beginners make with stocks, is their unwillingness to remove more wood, particularly from the forestock. They come to MLing from modern guns, where the stock supports the barrel. In most MLers, the Barrel holds the stock- a reverse! newbies don't get it, and don't see it when they look at pictures of originals.

The only things the the forestock does on a long rifles it to Protect the barrel from a sharp blow, and to provide a place to attach the pipes to hold the ramrod up. The lighter it is, the better.

To get the forestock "lighter" it needs to be angled(tapered) from the entry pipe to the muzzle cap on the top, so that the muzzle cap covers about 1/8-1/4 of the width of the side flats. The barrel looks like its "floating" on the stock, rather than being surrounded by it.

And, the bottom of the forestock needs to be reduced again, from the entry pipe to the muzzle cap, with a taper that all but eliminates the Ram Rod channel at the back of the muzzle cap. It is these two tapers that give the longrifle its "grace", and balance. It is this taper that allows the barrels to be long, without shifting the center of balance forward so far that the gun becomes overly muzzle heavy.

 

[Vaino]

The web between the bottom of the bbl channel and RR groove and hole determines how "clunky" both fore arms will be and therefore the total slimness of the LR. Many "kits" or parts sets have a precarve that has too big a web {the profiler doesn't want to make scrap} and it's nigh on impossible to make a slim LR w/ a 1/4" web unless one is building a very early LR. Am presently building from scratch a Bucks County LR which LRs are noted for their trim lines and the web on this BC is 3/32" at the breech and 1/8" at the muzzle. Both the upper fore end bottom and top are 1/32" below the centerlines of the bbl and RR groove respectively and this wasn't done to reduce fore end weight but to achieve a very trim LR. Rich's list of things to be aware of is correct and if followed, will yield a good looking LR....Fred

 

[str8sh2ter]

Great! This thread IS growing alittle.thanks for all the input so far.It might make a good quick reference thread.We'll see.
Can anyone point me to a link or explain a good method for radiusing the lock panel edges .I uses different size round files but it seems there might be a better way?
i might add that if you have any secret fixes to common errors ,I'd like to hear how you use them. thanks again.

 

[R.J.]

I think the biggest mistake beginners make with stocks, is their unwillingness to remove more wood, particularly from the forestock. They come to MLing from modern guns, where the stock supports the barrel. In most MLers, the Barrel holds the stock- a reverse! newbies don't get it, and don't see it when they look at pictures of originals.

The only things the the forestock does on a long rifles it to Protect the barrel from a sharp blow, and to provide a place to attach the pipes to hold the ramrod up. The lighter it is, the better.

[highlight]To get the forestock "lighter" it needs to be angled(tapered) from the entry pipe to the muzzle cap on the top, so that the muzzle cap covers about 1/8-1/4 of the width of the side flats. The barrel looks like its "floating" on the stock, rather than being surrounded by it. [/i][/b]
And, the bottom of the forestock needs to be reduced again, from the entry pipe to the muzzle cap, with a taper that all but eliminates the Ram Rod channel at the back of the muzzle cap. It is these two tapers that give the longrifle its "grace", and balance. It is this taper that allows the barrels to be long, without shifting the center of balance forward so far that the gun becomes overly muzzle heavy.

Does anyone have a good pic or two to illustrate this aspect of the LR? I'm having trouble visualizing it. This is turning out to be a great thread. Keep the good tips coming,and some pics too. :thumbsup:

 

[Vaino]

Although I initially lower the fore end top surface 1/32" below bbl centerline, it ends up being slightly lower than that. Asre the bottom of the upper fore end...initially that too is 1/32" below the RR center and finishes up slightly more. Because I always have a relief molding from the entry pipe to the MC end, I don't taper the fore end bottom to the level of the MC. This is done on some Lehigh LRs but otherwise isn't very common. If a very slender LR is to be built, the web has to be minimal for side view slimness...Fred

 

[J.D.]

The biggest "secret" I have learned is from studying original rifles, even if only for a few minutes.

Once can't reproduce something they have never seen in the flesh, so to speak, so the best way to learn how those transitions look is to handle and study originals or GOOD contemporary pieces.

The second best "secret" is studying good photos of originals in books and on the net.
http://www.americanhistoricservices.com/html/home.html

Looking at photos of the work of the better builders is another way to get a feel for how the originals looked.

Search the net for photos of the work of Jack Brooks, Mike Brooks, Steve Zihn, Allan Martin, Bill Shipman, Chris Immel, Dave Rase, Jerry Huddleston, Mark Silver, and Garry Brumfield, to name only a few that come immediately to mind.

I know I missed several good builders on this forum. That doesn't mean they aren't good builders, only that I didn't think of them.

 

[Herb]

Here are my latest mistakes and how I am correcting them. Top rifle is a .50 B 38" Rice barrel with a Chambers Late Ketland flintlock in a Stonewall Creek Outfitters stock that I am finishing up. I put a coat of stain and finish on it so I could shoot it in our Easter Peep Shoot so the big boys wouldn't kick sand in my face for shooting a caplock. It needs more shaping and sanding.

Bottom is the same barrel in a blank. I traced the upper stock on it, but rotated it at the lock bolt to drop the heel by 1/2". This lowered the muzzle by 1 1/4" for a better fit. I sawed out the pattern, routed the barrel channel to the minimum barrel width. Hand inletted the swamps at the ends and bent and inletted the tang. Routed the ramrod groove and drilled the hole, 3/8". Installed the powder drum and inletted a Siler caplock. Located the lockbolt hole on the bolster, drilled it and then drilled through the wood and tang.

Now here is my mistake. Using the same sideplae as the upper rifle, I drilled it for the lock bolt. Placed it and drilled for a front lock bolt (making it as a conversion from flint to percussion). I wanted the lockplate to curve into the wrist, and inletted it.

Then I discovered my web was too thick when, after installing the rod pipes (I cut the tabs .1" above the pipes) the ramrod had about a 1/4" gap below the nosecap. So I inletted the pipes deeper, to match the above rifle. Used a 3/8" round scraper made from a screwdriver, and a 3/8" rattail file with tang bent at right angles for a handle, I cut the ramrod groove to match. Drilled the hole to 7/16" for about 4" and scraped the step out with a steel rod. Now the rod is close to the nosecap and slides smoothly into the stock.

I also inletted the entry pipe deeper to match the above stock. The tail sets the line for the lower forestock back to the trigger. I marked the trigger plate stock depth the same as the above rifle and rasped to this line (using a rounded Surform rasp that cuts well). Set the buttplate on to length (13 1/2" LOP) and drew a line from the toe forward to the trigger area. Drew a radius here. Cold-bent the trigger plate to this radius.

Now I found my sideplate was too low. I had cut the panel thinner than the lock side (bolster thickness), so could not rasp it off and re-inlet. So I sawed a filet out of the comb line, matched the grain, drew the sideplate pattern on it, sawed and filed it out, inletted it, stained the glue, clamped it in and filed it out. Now I will re-inlet the sideplate higher (to the pencil line), cutting off the top of the hump and reshaping the sideplate a bit. Filled the hole with brass soldered in. New hole will be drilled lower.

I don't know why that lock bolt came lower than on the flintlock, but that set the sideplate lower. I have before installed the lockbolts, then drew a sideplate pattern to match them and sawed it from brass. Sideplate fit can be tricky.
I got lots more mistakes I have made, but enough for today!

 

[necchi]

I think the biggest mistake beginners make with stocks, is their unwillingness to remove more wood, particularly from the forestock.

I'm glad you said that :bow: . Taking the toothy side of a 4in1 8" rasp up against a $200> precut curly maple stock in a sturdy vise is a scary thing at it's least! It is a learning experiance to find that after taking off a 1/4" or more (did I say or more!) ya still hafta flip that rasp to the small side to shape and work down the "high" spot's. Then sand, then scrap, then,, Man, that maple grain can be some HARD stuff too cut through!

 

[paulvallandigham]

You are absolutely correct. Shaping a stock is not a job you want to rush, unless you have very good templates and measurements to consult during the process. You don't usually have those on your first couple of builds. I encourage everyone to step back sit down, and really look at the stock from various angles and then look at pictures of similar guns that are originals, or fine modern copies. Its amazing, to me, what I See that I didn't notice the first dozen times I examined pictures of original rifles, until I get down to actually trying to shape that part of the stock!

I also spend a lot of time in Gunmaker's Hall at friendship, examining closely the fine guns that are being displayed there. Its fun to find multiple solutions to some little problem that you don't find any written suggestions about here, or in books, or even on films. On the rare occasion when one of the builders is standing there, and I get to ask him directly about my " little problem", it makes the long drive to Friendship worth every minute of it.

 

[oldarmy]

Not removing enough wood.
Especially around the lock panels,and the barrel.
I still have problems with the entry thimble, and where the wrist and the cheek piece intersects.
1/8" line around the lock MAX, with a flare to the front and back.
You need to think about driving the trigger assembly deep into the wrist. That gives you a nice thin wrist, which in turn drives the shape of the stock.
Also. I find the swamped barrels greatly enhance the overall shape and appearance of the rifle.
It's hard to have a nice "flare" for lack of a better term. In the wrist with a straight barrel.
Still Being a novice builder. You will learn from experience and what your work will sell for on the open market. Correcting your prior mistakes with each new project. Building the skills that you need to "assemble" a clean and eye pleasing period correct weapon. Is it 100% PC?? probably not.. but that is for a different thread
This forum is one of the best ones on the web.. IN my opinion. I have been welcomed, met a number of great builders that helped me out. Have a built a number of relationships and have just had a great time.

 

[str8sh2ter]

thanks evryone.There's some real good information here.
How about metal Finishs?i'm putting the finishing touchs on a T/C Hawken kit.I know about browning and Blueing.What are some other options for the Barrel? If left in the white ,do you appy anything to it to keep it White?Any other finishs?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Any steel left " in the white" is going to rust to some extent. The only way to keep it " white" is to polish it with steel wool or other abrasives periodically.

You see Hawkins in both Brown and some blued. I don't recall seeing any " in the white". Remember, this was a heavy plains rifle, sold to explorers, and Trappers who were going out into dangerous territory, where Indians would kill them at any opportunity. The last thing those trappers needed was any metal that would flash light off bright metal that could be seen 20 miles away! That is why you see iron furniture on a lot of the original Hawkins rifles. The modern ' Mountain rifle replica", including the T/C come with lots of polished BRASS because that is what people want. We have plenty of posts here describing how to tarnish the brass so it doesn't flash light when hunting.

The only other finishes would be Parkerizing- that course Army Green finish commonly scene on military firearms since WWI, but not on MLers, and both various kinds of Black, and White chrome. None of these finishes can be done in the typical home workshop. The chromes both flash a lot of light, but they do cover the metal so that it won't rust. You could have someone chrome the interior of the barrel, to give you added protection against rusting, while browning the outside of the barrel and action and furniture, so that nothing flashes off the gun when hunting.

I personally like the look of Rust Blue finishes on a Hawkin style rifle.

 

[Herb]

One thing you can do is heat up the steel parts with a propane torch, or maybe a heat gun, to the extent that you can melt beeswax on the metal. Rub that in and wipe off the excess. That will protect the metal, which will gradually grey or darken with age, which after a hundred years or less (chuckle) you can call a patina. I treat my browned or cold-blued metal parts this way, a hot beeswax coat.

 

[rich pierce]

Couple of tricks I use that not many others do. So maybe these aren't necessary but they are helpful to me.

1) When filing or even grinding flats on anything and you're having trouble getting it right, "paint" the surface you're working on with a wide magic marker. I do this on ramrod pipes etc and you can really see where you're working now and where more needs to come off. Same is true when you've forged a new chisel or knife and are shaping the edge prior to hardening and tempering, or when filing "draft" on a breechplug, etc. This also helps when filing dovetails.

2) Getting a good inlet at the barrel breech is always challenging. Lots of times we tip the barrel out from the muzzle and that leaves a "false impression" of inletting black where no more wood needs to be removed. I solder a 2" long piece of 1/8" thick brass to the top flat of the barrel at the breech, and stick a dowel in the muzzle of the barrel. Now I can lift the barrel straight up. It's much easier to keep great support for the breech this way.

3) While we're at the breech, most breechplugs are way too thick in the tang area. Go ahead and thin down the underside. There's no need for 1/4" to 5/16" of metal here. Now it will bend to profile much better. There's no need for it or the trigger plate to exceed 1/8" in thickness.

4) Get a set of small gimlets. These are small hand-drills with a screw on the end. They screw into the wood first then they drill the hole. A tiny one in 1/16" or 3/32 is great for starting pin holes for the underlugs and ramrod pipe pins. They will start a straight hole in an already-shaped forend and somehow are easier to keep staright than a hand drill. They work great for starter holes for your woodscrews too, are handy, take up no room on the bench.

5) Learn how to use drawknives, planes and spokeshaves. Lots of guys chisel and gouge and rasp stocks from blanks and it's brutal slow work forming a comb and cheekpiece from a 2.25" wide piece of rock hard maple. I have not progressed to hatchet stage for figured wood yet, but I'll get there. You can find terrific 1700's and 1800s wood planes on ebay for $30 shipped that can be used for ramrod grooves, starting your barrel inlet, and planing every flat surface.

 

[str8sh2ter]

thanks alot rich.that's the kind of stuff i was hoping for.The little tricks that come with experience .kind of like what you'd pick up from standing around and watching a builder or aprenticing under one.Great stuff.