Bullet question

[Allan]

Hey smokeblower,
It sounds to me you need to give a good long think to were our hunting heritage started.
I'm on my second book about Boone. As one of the first long hunters in this country exploring new lands he could be one of the first "professional hunters" in our history.
Do you know how much a buffalo weighs? Boone, on a regular bases, took buffalo, deer, bear and trapped other stuff and made money selling the meat and hides. Deer hides were so valuable they could be exchanged anywhere for as much as a dollars worth of powder, ball, flour or anything else you needed. Thats why we call a dollar a buck.
And..
He did it all with PRB, 45cal. or less.
After reading about Boone and others, people like Shockey don't impress me at all.
I have the same rifle as you do. I fell for all the hype about modern bullets too. I have a dozen pre-lubed game-master 50cal. 385gr bullets that are going to be given away at the next shoot. I'm gona hunt with PRB and improve my personel hunting skills instead of getting a better gun or bullet.

 

[roundball]

Right on Allen...I started with an MK-85 back when they first came out, and since then have gone backwards in technology through percussion side locks, then patched balls, to my present flintlocks.
Hunting & shooting sports have been my life since the 60's and nothing has given me more satisfaction than learning about and taking deer with flintlocks...just fantastic...I like shooting them so much that I almost can't wait for deer season to get over with so I can go back to range shooting every Saturday morning !!

 

musketman....I drop tube 80 grs. of GOEX Ctg. into my '90 cases.....you won't get 90 grains in them and have room to seat a bullet unless you crush the powder. If you force the issue and do that your group will be something like a load of 00 buck. BP cartridges are a bit of a different critter.

There is data out there for shooting smokeless in BPC guns but the only one I own that I shoot smokeless in is a re-proofed E. M. Reilly double in 500 BPE. I just couldn't make it shoot with black. It has Henry rifleing and from all I can find out they shoot best with paper-patched bullets when using black. Something I simply haven't had the desire to fool with to date. I hope in time to. At any rate it shoots 1 1/2" to 2" at 50 yards with IMR 3031 and some pretty hard 340 gr. bullets so for the time being I'll accept that until my traditional nature takes over.......and I have time to patch bullets!

Vic

 

Voyageur....

I had a rolling block rechambered to 45-120-3 1/4 several years back. That rifle too weighed 11+ pounds. With approx. 110 grs. of GOEX ctg. and Lymans 457125, 520 gr. round nose it was brutal from the bench, and not much better offhand. My old neighbors would ask when I got a cannon. Evidently the BOOM carried quite well acorss those hills.

I never killed an animal with it....quite honestly it was just too much, and not nearly as accurate as the 45-70, 40-70, 45-90, 40-65 or any of the cartridges in that class. My old 40-82, 1886 Win. beat it pretty bad.

musketman, I stand corrected, I also shoot IMR 3031 in that 1886 Win. I'm too lazy to strip it and clean it good if I were to shoot black in it. Besides, I had it restored, (it was pretty much a boat anchor), and I don't want to subject that beautiful case hardening and blue job to the corrisive nature of black....for fear of me potentialy not cleaning it as well as I should. ( which I doubt would ever happen...but it might! ).

Vic

 

[musketman]

quote:Originally posted by sharps4590:
you won't get 90 grains in them and have room to seat a bullet unless you crush the powder.

Looks like there is a little bit of room in there...
Compressed black powder loads were common, Plus the bullet may not have been seated that deep to allow for the extra powder...

Lastly, black powder of yesterday may have fit into the case with ease, not all powder is the same granular size per set volume.

sharps4590: check this out...
http://www.gunblast.com/BillyDixon_Sharps.htm

 

[Zonie]

Musketman: As a loader of the .45-70 I can say there is no way to get 70 grains of Black Powder in a new case.
The reason for this is the original cases were THIN! That thinness is also the reason the originals often had the rim pull off leaving the case in the chamber.

The new brass for all of these old guns have tapered walls, and the taper is enough to take up 5 or more grains of powder space. (This includes the .43 Spanish that I also load). This tapered wall in the new cases makes it possible to safely reload the cases many times without problems (which except for the "Everlasting" could not be said for the rest of the old BP cases.)
While on the subject: I load smokeless in most of my .45-70 cases because while I don't mind cleaning one gun, it is a real PIA to clean 50 cases plus the gun. I load for 1200 FPS using IMR4198 so the pressure is kept down where the BP loads were. THIS IS NOT TO SAY YOU CAN SAFELY LOAD ANY SMOKELESS POWDER IN A NON CARTRIDGE GUN BEHIND ANY PROJECTILE!!! EVER!!! (Unless the gun was designed for it by a factory who will take the lawsuit when it blows up).

 

[Voyageur]

Boy, you ain't wrong 'zonie. The original cases were 'folded head' cases and had more room than the 'drawn' cases we use nowadays. When I compress my duplex loads it's less than 1/8 " and I'm looking real close that I don't 'bulge' the case.

 

[musketman]

quote:Originally posted by 'zonie:
The reason for this is the original cases were THIN!I believe the cases were balloon head types too, not the web type as in todays case.

This balloon type case would also allow for some aditional powder.

Wouldn't FFFg fit better in the case than FFg?
I know it's still the same volume of powder.

Anyway, that's what I love about muzzleloaders, no need to worry about case volume, head space, weak brass, overall length or resizing...

Don't get me wrong, I reload for over 20 different calibers...

My all time favorite cartridge is the .22 Hornet.

 

Compressed loads in cartridges were and are very much used. Generally your load will burn cleaner using, as Voyageur said, 1/8" compression, along with use of a drop tube. I compress the same amount. I said "crushed" and if you force the issue and try to load the full measure of the description of the load you will not have accuracy. As everyone has said, our cases today and our powders are different than they were 100+ years ago.

Also, non-compressed powder loads were common in the era. They used several diffent methods then as we do now. And, as I stated, loading black in cartridges is a considerably different game than loading smokeless.

Vic

 

Nice page musketman...If you ever get up in Voayageurs neck of the woods check out Shiloh Sharps in Big Timber, Montana or Cody Rifle Works in Cody, Wyoming.

I'll always miss that part of the country.....

Vic

 

My rifle is like yours and if you shoot that kind of bullet in a round ball barrel, the gun will kick real bad and your cheek bone will get brused badly. I know I've did it. A round ball barrel can not handle conicals. You would have to have a gun with a faster twist. 1 in 48 in. is about right. I think you rifle has a 1 in 66 in. twist. Be careful. Dennis.

 

[smokeblower]

The Blue Ridge rifle is a 1 in 48 twist. I would never dream of using a mini or other long style in a 1 : 66 rifle. I have the molds in hand, I bought both as soom as the rain breaks I will give it a try. If it works I will report the results, if not be the first to admit I was told so and will have two molds for sale.

Another question for you smoothbore shooters. Would buck and ball loads be considered legal for states like mine, TN where buckshot is not legal for deer hunting? Would it be considered a buck shot load due to the multiple shots? Or would the big ball pushing the smaller shot be considered a legal, primary load?I ask our local game warden and he scratched his head saying he would get back with my answer. I have a hunting friend with a 1842 Springfield knock off and we were wondering.
thanks,
Smokeblower

 

[tg]

My guess is that they will consider it a buck shot load....with one rather large shot, we can use buck and ball here in regular season as both slugs and buck shot are leagal but not in ML season.

 

[Voyageur]

#4 buckshot - .24in
#3 buckshot - .25in
#2 buckshot - .27in
#1 buckshot - .30in
0 buckshot - .32in
00 buckshot - .33in
000 buckshot - .36in

Maybe if you use .378 diameter balls you wouldn't be violating the law.

 

[tg]

That brings up another interesting question, if hunting in a state that requires a .45 min cal rilfe for deer is that the ball size or the bore size,(usuaaly bore I think) you can shoot a .390 ball with thick patching in a .45 rifle, and probably be legal, but would be in violation useing a .390 ball in a .40 cal gun.

 

[Zonie]

quote:by TG if hunting in a state that requires a .45 min cal rilfe for deer is that the ball size or the bore size It's gotta be the bore size if for no other reason than when the Lawmakers talk about the caliber of a gun they use the Gun Companys designation. As the muzzleloading barrel companys refer to the bore it would be the bore size.
(I have seen news stories which talked like the .38 was bigger than a .357 which goes to show how much the non shooting public knows about guns.)

As for loading a "buck and ball" load, I would think the local F&G officer would probably class it as a "multiple load" which would be illegal unless "buckshot" was specifically allowed. Then you could say that your overpowder wad just happened to be a big lead ball!

 

[Stumpkiller]

New York spells it out:

"The legal firearm for this season is a muzzleloading rifle or pistol (insluding smoothbore muzzleloaders) loaded through the muzzle, shooting a single projectile and having a bore of .44 inches or larger."

Additional thees and thous rule out percussion revolvers and double-barreled muzzleloaders but state that fiber-optic and scope sights are allowed.

So, you can use a single #4 buckshot with a shoe-leather patch if you were so inclined, but not multiple-projectile loads.

I just read in the 2001 Dixie Blackpowder Annual that Daniel Boone's "Ticklicker" was a 0.29 caliber.

 

[TwoShadows]

Looks like the subject has been pretty well covered....and some sound advise posted, so I won't add a lot. Voygeur, You are obviously a sharp cookie when you speak of what a projectile should do and I echo your observations. You are right on the money. When a projectile stops just under the hide on the off side of the critter, you have expended all the energy the shot is capable of. What more could be desired?

'Zonie...sound observations also, as are many of the others.

I am impressed by the wisdom I am seeing from what must be older, wiser heads(not that older is necessarily wiser). The sound advice passed to the newer shooters is what a site like this should reflect. Glad I found y'all.

 

[TomFoolerythe3rd]

For some reason I have not gotten good results with the Lee REAL bullet in my Mississippi Rifle, but the Lyman GPR shoots it very well. So to me it would seem that you would just have to try it. I found that it requires about 10 less grains of powder in my Plains Rifle than a normal .530 patched roundball. I would imagine it would play heck with a deer.

 

[smokeblower]

My round ball mold has been cold for a season. I am sold on the REAL being much better at short range ambush hunting than the old rounder. But then again I do not argue with stumps. I have a few that I drilled a small hollow point cavity into to test. That is my next step in using this style. The lighter .50 shoots sweet in my Blue Ridge. I still use the repo. .58 "Z" due to the damp mornings. A well placed shot is the key, doing so a roundball works, yet lacks the crippling effects that the REAL produces. To each his own, I will save the roundballs for killing paper.