Bullet question

[newarcher]

Hi all, it has been a while.

Y'all might remember me, I was given a TC High Plains Sporter by a good friend of mine. He's just passed and that got me thinking about that ML.

I'm getting geared up for deer season with my 12 year old and I want to sight the gun in. I sighted it in and when cleaning it I noticed the peep sight on the back was LOOSE. Time wasted sighting it in that time, not to mention the almost two hour round trip to the outdoor range.

Anyhoo, I am considering bullets and I want to weigh my options.

When first sighting it in, I used round ball with a patch between the powder and ball.

However, I also want to explore the other options. But I am unsure whether the process is different for using any of these bullets:

Hornady Great Plains bullet
Thompson center maxi ball
Thompson center maxi hunter

1) Would I also use a patch between the charge and the bullet if I used one of these conicals?

2) Would I use less powder with these bullets as opposed to round ball?

3) I noticed the TC bullets have some yellow layers, what are those and would the Hornady be at a disadvantage because it doesn't have those?

4) Is there anything else I need to know when using these bullets as opposed to shooting round ball?

We will be using this gun/bullet combo for deer out to 100 yards max...most likely around 50-75 yards.

Speak slowly and assume I know nothing because I really don't!

Thanks,
New

 

[Black Hand]

Save yourself a lot of work/expense and stick with the roundballs. Plenty efficient (and accurate) out to 100 yards and beyond....

 

[rabjr]

1) Would I also use a patch between the charge and the bullet if I used one of these conicals?

2) Would I use less powder with these bullets as opposed to round ball?

3) Is there anything else I need to know when using these bullets as opposed to shooting round ball?

Those conicals are ment to be loaded on top of the powder and shot. However some lube and place a "bore button" which is a felt wad, between the powder and the conicals base to help seal the bore and protect the conical base.

Some do use less and some more powder. A lot depends on the animal they are hunting and how recoil sensitive they are.

Just beware, big leads tend to recoil a lot. A lot more than any roundball load in the same gun.

 

[longcruise]

However, I also want to explore the other options. But I am unsure whether the process is different for using any of these bullets:

Hornady Great Plains bullet
Thompson center maxi ball
Thompson center maxi hunter

The actual usage of those bullets does not vary much. I would suggest the TC hunter as a good start. I don't care for the TC maxi ball because of the pointy nose and lack of a meplat. Wider meplat is better wound channel.

1) Would I also use a patch between the charge and the bullet if I used one of these conicals?

You would not patch them by surrounding as with a round ball. Some shoot them with a card between the bullet and the powder. I've done it both ways and don't see any benefit to the card wad, but others will differ on that.

If you plan on using card wads, avoid the use of hollow base bullets, given that the card might end up jammed into the hollow base. There are probably "fixes" for that but I don't know what they are.

2) Would I use less powder with these bullets as opposed to round ball?

Difficult to say. A better way to pose your question would be "how much powder should be used with conicals". The answer depends partly on caliber. For either a .50 or .54 caliber, anywhere from 70 grains of ff to 100 grains of ff would work.

3) I noticed the TC bullets have some yellow layers, what are those and would the Hornady be at a disadvantage because it doesn't have those?

Thats the lubrication showing in the bullet grooves. The other's have it too but just a different color.

4) Is there anything else I need to know when using these bullets as opposed to shooting round ball?

You should be considering recoil! :shocked2: Especially for your twelve year old. A .50 caliber rifle shooting a 370 grain maxi ball with 100 grains of powder has a recoil exceeding a 45-70 with a 405 or 500 grain bullet load over black powder. If you decide to shoot conicals, shoot if before your kid shoots it and see if you want to subject them to the recoil. A few shots of that could have them giving up hunting for life!

The conicals will not necessarily give you any accuracy advantage over a round ball, and given that a .50 or .54 caliber round ball will easily take any North American deer, I'd suggest sticking with the round ball. Try some various thicknesses of patch material and so forth. Do some research on how to load and shoot round balls. It's takes a bit more to learn it but in the end you kid will be much the better for it, IMO.

We will be using this gun/bullet combo for deer out to 100 yards max...most likely around 50-75 yards

All within the capabilities of the round ball. Range limitation will be more a matter of how well your kid can shoot the rifle under field conditions.

 

[newarcher]

Thanks all, I will stick to ball and just give it a shot.

I won't let the kid out with it until he's accurate as he needs to be...now whether buck fever takes over, I dunno !

New

 

[Pete Gaimari]

You wouldn't want a 12 year old shooting those bullets anyway. They kick like mules.

Shoot the PRB.

 

[newarcher]

I think that's a great idea at this point.

As long as it takes the deer down at 50 yards, I am good shooting the PRB.

Thanks all for the advice.

New

 

[Horizontal Hunter]

You wouldn't want a 12 year old shooting those bullets anyway. They kick like mules.

Shoot the PRB.

What Capper said. A .50 PRB weighs in at around 176g yet the TC Maxi Ball I shoot is 370g. There is a significant difference in felt recoil getting that Maxi moving down the pipe.

I use the same amount of powder for my PRB and TC Maxi ball and they shoot equally well. The PRB's shoot higher as they are lighter and use of a felt button between the powder and Maxi helped tighten up my groups with the TC Maxi ball. YMMV

Bob

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

You wouldn't want a 12 year old shooting those bullets anyway. They kick like mules.

Shoot the PRB.

What Capper said. A .50 PRB weighs in at around 176g yet the TC Maxi Ball I shoot is 370g. There is a significant difference in felt recoil getting that Maxi moving down the pipe.

I use the same amount of powder for my PRB and TC Maxi ball and they shoot equally well. The PRB's shoot higher as they are lighter and use of a felt button between the powder and Maxi helped tighten up my groups with the TC Maxi ball. YMMV

Bob

+1! I could have wrote this myself! Those 370's work really well with around 70-75 grains of 3Fg Goex and a .50 cal wonder-wad. I've shot two perfect targets offhand at 50 yards with them, scoring 50x50 twice so far. POA is around two inches from the top of the bull for the Maxi's when the PRB's are dead-on!

Dave

 

[Rat Trapper]

The yellow layers on the TC bullets is bullet lube. The Hornaday Great Plains bullets also has bullet lube, it's just clear in color. The Hornaday great plains bullet is my go to hunting bullet in my 50 & 54 Caliber TC Hawken rifles. I always use a Ox Yoke orginals felt wads under the bullet. I have always gotten better accuracy with conical bullets when using the upper end of the loading chart. When you take your son out to the range use a Lead Sled or put a sand bag between the rifle butt and his shoulder. Having the wife make up a padded shirt for the kid with foam sewed into the shoulder area would also work.

You will have to see what your rifle likes best. some rifles like patched round balls and other prefer conical bullets. Light loads are great for target work, however don't let others here talk you into wimp loads for hunting. Both the patched round ball and conicals will work in the field it all depends on what your rifle likes best.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

He said he's using the PRB.

A good idea.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Capper,
He said he wanted to explore some other options.
Nothing wrong with using conicals if that's what the rifle likes best. Even you can handle a little recoil for one or two shots during the hunting season.

 

[longcruise]

He said he wanted to explore some other options.
Nothing wrong with using conicals if that's what the rifle likes best. Even you can handle a little recoil for one or two shots during the hunting season.

Actually he said both. Later in the thread he said:

As long as it takes the deer down at 50 yards, I am good shooting the PRB.

Just trying to keep the lid on! :haha:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I wasn't going to say anything. I figured he just read the first post.

 

[tg]

You can do whatever you wish but Black Hands advise cannot be improved upon.It is good to see you are introducing a youngster to ML hunting, you will be doing him a great favour by steering him toward primitive sights and round balls, in the long run he will likley get a much more rewarding experience by following the old ways.Good luck to you both and enjoy the journey.

 

[Dphar]

The maxiball is useless from all accounts where people actually looked at the results. Thus the Maxi-Hunter was foisted on the ML shooters as an improvement. It was I suppose but neither was needed.
Most conicals shot from 48" twists have been known to not track straight after striking the animal.
RB will kill fine, it penetrates fine and shoots flatter on much less recoil. Whats not to like?
The hype over conicals in MLs is simply to SELL THE PRODUCT.
I can remember when the 7mm and 300 mags came out and the gunwriters were indicating that the 30-06 was now useless. But the old 06 is still around and still killing stuff just like it aways did.
The "modern" conicals were developed by TC and others because.
1. The customers, used to shooting bullets from their CF guns were used to using bullets.
2. These customers were often incapable of dealing with patches,lubes and (horrors) load development etc.
Then since TC and others were buying advertising the gunwriters and editors had to sell the stuff to keep the ADVERTISERS happy and they were generally as ignorant as the people reading their stuff about MLs. So we got "the round ball is ballistically inferior, the RB will not penetrate, the round ball has no remaining energy". ALL BULLSH!T put out through ignorance and for pay.
Most RBs I have shot into deer at ranges to 140-150 yards PASS THROUGH. The ones that stay in penetrate to the far side hide or about 30" of deer depending how the critter is standing. A 50 cal FL pistol with a RB and 45 gr of FFF chronoed at 800 fps from a 6" barrel will penetrate about 24" of deer at 20-25 yards.
Also conicals are known to not stay on the powder since they are free to slide up and down the bore under some circumstances. I.E. if the rifle is muzzle down and gets a bumped run the loading rod down as a check. If carried muzzle down while walking requires a check now and then.
Naked conical bullets were never used in MLs to any extent by hunters. The disadvantages were greater than the benefit.
Even the cloth patched picket was not used much other than for target shooting. Its not as accurate as a RB and requires a precision starter for an accuracy at all but it will not slide off the powder at least.

SHOT PLACEMENT IS THE KEY.
Find an accurate load with a RB that gives a FLAT TRAJECTORY zero the rifle at 100 yards + and place the shot. This is usually 45-50% of ball weight in 45-54 caliber rifles.
A 22 LR will kill deer with a well placed chest shot (people who used to do it tell me). But we are told a 50-54 ML needs a slug to be effective???
My grandfather killed a buck when he was a kid with what was surely (given he time frame) a BP 22 short. One shot. He shot the deer to chase it out of the garden never thinking it would be killed. His father told him to trail it since its tail was down when it ran off. Found it in the woods dead.
But since a 22 short would not kill a deer, based on what the gun writers tell us about MLs, it probably died of a heart attack. :rotf:
Dan

 

[Pete Gaimari]

My results don't agree with your post Dan.

The PRB is effective, but it's not the magic you claim over other choices.

Lots of round balls have been found in elk after it was killed with a real bullet.

The PRB is fine within it's range, but lets not compare it to a bullet that's effective at 2-3 times it's range.

 

[Dphar]

My results don't agree with your post Dan.

The PRB is effective, but it's not the magic you claim over other choices.

Lots of round balls have been found in elk after it was killed with a real bullet.

The PRB is fine within it's range, but lets not compare it to a bullet that's effective at 2-3 times it's range.

How many round balls and where were they placed?
I here this stuff all the time but anything can be made up.
I once killed a deer that was shot with a modern centerfire. The bullet struck a rib and fragmented. It made a hole in the diaphragm. When I shot the deer through the chest side to side with 44-90, good lung shot.
When I approached the deer I see green goo in the entrance wound.
WTFO???
A portion of a stomach had protruded several inches through the hole and the 44 bullet cut the end off and put a lot of stomach contents in the chest cavity.
A friend shot an elk with a 45-70 and blew a chunk of lung out he found on the ground. Tracked the elk for a mile before finding it.
I did the same with a MD Buck shot with a 308 though the distance was shorter. Shot it running with my 45-70 then neck shot it when it went down.
A friend told me of shooting a cow elk with a 338 mag and never caught up to. Thinks that like in the 308 and 45-70 that he only got one lung.
I did not say the RB is magic. Nor is the conical.
Its shot placement.
Finding dead or dying antelope a day or two later shot with modern CFs is not uncommon due to POOR SHOT PLACEMENT.
The advantage of the conical is far more suppositional than real. So far as the bullet is properly placed and used within its range.
I have shot or seen shot deer, antelope, elk, moose and black bear.
Calibers from 218 Bee to 458 win mag.
38-40 through 50-90 BRCRs. Various bullet weights.
Round balls in 45-50-54-58-66 caliber.
If placed right and the ball is sized properly for the game it works as well as anything else.
I have had people I trust tell me horror storied in shooting large game like Moose with 54 Maxi Balls. They found that a 62 or 69 RB worked much better.
I personally don't think a 54 is big enough for elk but others scoff at this. It has a history of working and current experience as well on animals as large as American Bison, an animal that can be very bullet resistant when shot with things like 300 mags, this from a guy who raises them and guides hunts.

The projectile matters very little if the shot is placed poorly, don't matter if it goes through or stays in on larger animals. Place it wrong and there will be problems.
Elk can pack a lot of lead. But a friends Dad back in the "firing line" days at Gardiner killed 5-6 bulls with a 25-20 Winchester.
You ever try shooting elk at 200 or 400 yards with an iron sighted BP rifle?
Once past point blank it get difficult. Then the slightest screw up in range estimation (cost me a BIG BULL once shooting a 40-90 BN) or a slight hiccup in holding (cost me a cow and 400+ with a 45-100 and I was zeroed on the spot).
People need to read Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and It Projectiles".
I have a rifle that shoots a ball that is exactly as heavy as a 54 Maxi (+- 3-4 grains), 437 gr, 16 to the pound. No way would I use a 54 rifle and a bullet in its place. Its very accurate, it will shoot hard or soft RBs and will shoot flat for deer to 130 yards or so.
Lower breech pressure, shoots flat over normal hunting ranges, accurate, stays on the powder and makes bigger holes than the Maxi also weighing an ounce. Forsythe stated that with a hardened lead ball his 14 bore with a 15 gauge ball with the same charge of powder I shoot would penetrate and Indian Elephants head from side to side.
AND ITS A TRADITION HUNTING BULLET FOR A ML RIFLE.

Would I shoot an elk with a 45 RB? No. Would I shoot one with a 380 gr PP from a 40-90? Sure would and have. Would I shoot an elk with a 54 RB. Sure would and have. Both worked as they should but the RB was a one shot kill and to 40-90 took 4 and one from a 44-90 and ALL were very well placed. The Elk just did not want to fall over.
Does this mean the 40-90 is inadequate and the 54 RB better? NO it means the damned cow elk was too dumb to know she was dead. I will admit the RB got a major artery off the heart and the bullets from the 40-90 were wreaking the lungs only. RB was about 80 yards and the 40-90 175.
But I like too hunt with flintlocks too and the RB is the correct and in fact the only projectile known the have been used in them other than is experimentation.

Dan

 

[BadHorse]

Then since TC and others were buying advertising the gunwriters and editors had to sell the stuff to keep the ADVERTISERS happy and they were generally as ignorant as the people reading their stuff about MLs. So we got "the round ball is ballistically inferior, the RB will not penetrate, the round ball has no remaining energy". ALL BULLSH!T put out through ignorance and for pay.
Most RBs I have shot into deer at ranges to 140-150 yards PASS THROUGH. The ones that stay in penetrate to the far side hide or about 30" of deer depending how the critter is standing. A 50 cal FL pistol with a RB and 45 gr of FFF chronoed at 800 fps from a 6" barrel will penetrate about 24" of deer at 20-25 yards.

finally someone that knows what a PRB can really do!

My results don't agree with your post Dan.

The PRB is effective, but it's not the magic you claim over other choices.

Lots of round balls have been found in elk after it was killed with a real bullet.

The PRB is fine within it's range, but lets not compare it to a bullet that's effective at 2-3 times it's range.

the problem with PRB's and hunting is people not wanting to work up a heavy hunting load. these days we expect the same paper punching load to kill what we point it at. this isnt true. recently Arizona fish and game did a ballistics test with 50 cal prb's and with a 100 gr load the 50 cal prb went through 3ft of ballistics gel and elk ribs (i have pics). im in complete agreement with Dan here. if your loading 100-120grs in your rifle your ball will pass right through what ever you point it at. it will take a bit of range time to get used to the heavy loads, i know mine shoot about 6" higher at 50 yards than with a load of about 70 gr.

This was my shot, into gel with Elk rib bones embedded in it. 100 grains of 3f Goex, .490 ball, .010 patch from a Lyman Great Plains rifle. The impact shattered the rib bone in several places, basically pulverizing about an 8" long section of rib, passed thru for about 10" & once again exiting out the top of the block.

Part of the purpose of this testing was to determine if any lead was fragmented into the "meat", thus posing a hazard to wildlife & / or humans consuming the kill. Happily, in every case the lead stayed virtually 100% intact. Even the shots impacting bone left no fragments visible to the naked eye. According to her, modern bullets fragmented almost instantly on contact, even if the majority of the bullet held together. In some cases, they fragmented so badly as to make it impossible to tell which was the "main" part of the slug...

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Dan,

We have a different definition of a modern conical. You think of a Maxi Ball. I'm not a fan of big lead conicals. I have no doubt that because of the weight they can get the job done. They might deflect from hitting bone, but so does the RB. I will say that the heavier the bullet. The less it will deflect. I saw a test done on how bullets deflect, and it was the heavy bullets that did the best.

I may have read your post too fast, and missed what you were saying. You were calling the Maxi a modern conical. I don't. Although it was never used back in the day of the guns we shoot. It's not a miniball, but even that doesn't go back far enough. I think all lead conicals are crude, and only work better, because of their weight.

This what I call a modern conical. A RB can't compare in any way with it's performance. I've used them, and i'm taking anybodies word for how they work.

Not PC in any way, but if someone is going to use a TC Hawken with T7 powder. You might as well shoot a bullet like this. Everything else you're doing screams modern.
http://thorbullets.com/