Bullet question

[Horizontal Hunter]

This thread has been an interesting read for a relative newbie like myself. My thanks to all the contributors.

Bob

 

[longcruise]

I have never had a conical sticking out the front of my rifle barrel while hunting.

Not turning my dog loose in this fight, but I will add from experience.

I have personally observed a conical coming off the powder. It was noted above that some have seen them poking out the end of the barrel. :shocked2: I saw just that with my hunting partners rifle. We were getting ready to leave the car and as he swung his rifle from a level position to upright I saw a flash of movement at the muzzle. I thought it was some kinda tiny animal or insect that invaded the barrel. He pointed the muzzle at the ground and the conical fell out. :shocked2:

I related this story to my other hunting pards and all but one of us switched to round balls for that reason alone. Several years later, the one guy who did not switch was persuaded to check the seating of his maxi ball occasionally and bingo, he found it sitting about eight inches off the powder. :shocked2:

How the conical fits the bore is undoubtedly a factor, but, OTOH, once you start a greased bullet down the bore and size it over 24 to 32 inches of barrel length, it is not going to be tight. Another factor is the type of hunting engaged in. Is it a several 100 yard walk to a blind or tree stand or a several mile hike over hill and dale? The latter will create many more opportunities for a bullet to move.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Who would hunt with a conical that fits that loose? The answer is to get one that fits properly. Not bad mouth all conicals.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Gun hacks are gun hacks, it doesn't matter what year they wrote it. Believing everything they wrote is no different than the poor guys that believe you have to use a belted Magnum to kill a Whitetail. Or the poor suckers that will believe that a Hornady conical will not track straight because a guy in the 19th century said so. When you post that conicals don't track straight why don't you also put on there the conicals of 1850 didn't track straight. I would like to see what twist they were using and the length of the bullets. From your own snips it appears they used round ball guns and loaded them with conicals. Maybe using a big conical in a 1-70 twist was thought as being the smart thing to try back in the 19th century. Today about any novice will tell you doing that won't work. Why don't you have a spirit talker channel them and tell them what they did wrong :rotf:

Ron

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Cmon Ron. Click on the name you want to respond to. I know it wasn't me.

 

[poordevil]

This is to the forum at large:

I see where one would want to use a conical while hunting a very large or dangerous animal now, with .58cal and 62 cal or so being the biggest, easily available. I shoot .577 Prichett balls in my musketoon and took a buffalo in 2007 with it.

Now, if really big bores could be had today, easily, then I would love to order from Cabilas a 16 bore rifle! I do have a .69 cal minnie rifle hurling a 720 gr bullet. I bet that it would be good for something.
p

 

[tg]

" but I have used lead conicals and round balls. Maxi-Balls and Maxi-Hunters'

So you consider these to not be modern conicals? the makers claim no connection with anything from the past, I have asked them about it, a conical is modern if it is not a closely based type using an original as a guideline, just not being a round ball does not quite cut it i have yet to find any makers that claim anything from the past to be a pattern or influence on their bullets except for the few that are replicas in name and style Minnie ball, and a couple of others that were mainly target loads.

" If you don't get it, you don't get it"

Yep Ron, I have tried to tell you that for years, and with no sign any understanding :rotf:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

To the thread:

My opinion only. If you really want to shoot the traditional way. Which means to me...shooting the ammo the gun did originally. You really should be shooting a PRB.

If that's not what you want to do. If you want to use a traditional gun, but use ammo that gives you the best chance for a quick kill. Then shoot whatever you like. Nobody is going to follow you on your hunt pointing a finger at you.

It's all what you want out of it, and even more important......what makes you happy.

What you shouldn't do is try and mix the two together, and claim it's ok.

 

[tg]

"What you shouldn't do is try and mix the two together, and claim it's ok."


I thik it is ok just do not call it "Traditional" if the bullet is a conical that is the spawn of modern R&D, honesty is not really a bad thing that will hurt anything but the ego.

 

[nkbj]

Not again! :rotf:

 

[longcruise]

Who would hunt with a conical that fits that loose? The answer is to get one that fits properly. Not bad mouth all conicals.

The conicals in both those examples were a tight start. As the greased conical goes down the bore it is sized to fit the bore. At that point it's easy for it to slip.

I know they don't all behave that way. I hunted with conicals for two years with my .50. I did not have any slippage. One possible explanation could be the smoothness of the bore. I know my partners bore was very slick and smooth cause I had looked through it without the breech plug installed. The other was a TC Renegade.

Don't know where you got the idea that I'm "bad mouthing" conicals. Just passing along info.

Honestly, I don't know how some people can get so worked up over the prb vs conical question. By now we have probably driven our OP back to his suppository guns. :haha:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I was just talking in general. I had the same problem with TC conicals. They start like it's going to be a perfect fit, and then just drop the rest of the way. I would never hunt with them.

Not sure I can blame the TC conical, or the TC barrel.

Since all the conicals aren't PC. If I want to shoot a conical it's not beyond me to use any modern conical.

For PC i'll shoot nothing but a PRB.

 

[Idaho Ron]

sorry capper :thumbsup:
Ron

 

[Pete Gaimari]

sorry capper :thumbsup:
Ron

What fer?

 

[Stumpkiller]

" but I have used lead conicals and round balls. Maxi-Balls and Maxi-Hunters'

So you consider these to not be modern conicals? the makers claim no connection with anything from the past . . .

I was just explaining my (limited) experience with conicals. I think "modern conical" is redundant from my muzzleloading perspective (c.1785); which isn't percussiony much, either. But even with my perc. rifles if a round ball won't carry to the animal - I get closer or pass. Round balls in .50 or .54 cal. are up to anything I'm like to try with my eyes and open iron sights anymore.

The biggest round ball I've used on flesh was .648"/430 gr. from a Bess L.I. Fusil and penetration was always 14" of deer width and then some.

 

[longcruise]

I was just talking in general.

Ok, I get it.

As far as use of conicals goes, I hunted with them for (I think) three years. Specifically, the TC Maxi ball. During those same years my wife hunted with a .58 caliber and Lee Target Minie conicals (see pic below). She killed a mulie buck with this over 60 grains of ff at 35 yards. Results were devastating.

If ever I were to use conicals again, it would be in a caliber no larger than .50 (to reduce recoil and retain sectional density). And it would be paper patched (the way ID Ron has described many times). Maybe also an over bullet card to be certain it would not move!

But, fact is, after killing several deer and one elk with .50 cal Maxi Balls and a bunch of deer, antelope and elk with .50 and .54 round balls, I see no reason to go back to conicals. The RBs have done an excellent job of dispathing animals (in most cases better than the Maxi :shocked2: ) and the recoil is much more manageable.

Let me add that I am not a recoil wuss. I regularly shoot 45-70 with 530 to 550 grain bullets and have shot more than my share of 300 mags without concerns over recoil. OTOH, we ML shooters tend to shoot a lot more than typical suppository shooters as well as the typical modern conical/sabot shooters. So, recoil being cumulative I (and I think others) find shooting RB loads a whole lot more enjoyable.

 

[longcruise]

Gun hacks are gun hacks, it doesn't matter what year they wrote it.

Ron, I think you are way off there. You are comparing our current crop of rag writers whose articles are purely driven by advertising to writers who did not have an agenda and did not answer to editors who kow tow to advertisors.

When they wrote is irrelevant, IMO. We still have a few outdoor writers among us today who are true to the facts as they see them. They are rare and seldom seen in print (guess why :haha: ), but they are there.

In the world of BPCR competition and shooting there are quite a few (you may be surprised to learn that Dan is one of them). They are guys who write, in many cases, without compensation and actually at their expense. The stuff they write is consumed, digested and tested by a cadre of dedicated competitive shooters who recognize the difference between scientific results driven information and drivel. The guys Dan cited and quoted were of that same type. They may have been compensated for their writing, but not by agenda driven editors.

 

[paulvallandigham]

To no one here specifically, but I have not seen anyone mention that the "solution" to conicals that move in the barrel is to use a felt wad, or an OS card that is at least groove diameter, run down the barrel on top of the bullet to hold it in place.

You may have to use 2 OS cards on some barrels, but if they are groove diameter or a bit larger, they will produce enough friction against the rifling to hold any conical on the powder no matter what kind of waking and climbing you do.

Considering the mass of these heavy conicals, the weight of a felt wad or OS card or 2 is not going to bother the accuracy of these bullets when they leave the barrel. NO?

Guys shooting large RBs in Smoothbore muskets, or fowlers, or shotguns have figured out the "fix" on this problem centuries ago. :idunno: :surrender: :hmm: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

I do not view conicals to be tradtional projectiles in flintlocks at all, and share the skepticism of Tg and others here about even using the current offerings in Percussion rifles. :shocked2: :nono:

But, make yourself happy :wink: . Just be safe, and take a lesson about how to hold those conicals on the powder from guys who have had the problem in their guns for years! :v :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

 

[CaptainKirk]

To no one here specifically, but I have not seen anyone mention that the "solution" to conicals that move in the barrel is to use a felt wad, or an OS card that is at least groove diameter, run down the barrel on top of the bullet to hold it in place.

You may have to use 2 OS cards on some barrels, but if they are groove diameter or a bit larger, they will produce enough friction against the rifling to hold any conical on the powder no matter what kind of waking and climbing you do.

Considering the mass of these heavy conicals, the weight of a felt wad or OS card or 2 is not going to bother the accuracy of these bullets when they leave the barrel. NO?

Guys shooting large RBs in Smoothbore muskets, or fowlers, or shotguns have figured out the "fix" on this problem centuries ago. :idunno: :surrender: :hmm: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

I do not view conicals to be tradtional projectiles in flintlocks at all, and share the skepticism of Tg and others here about even using the current offerings in Percussion rifles. :shocked2: :nono:

But, make yourself happy :wink: . Just be safe, and take a lesson about how to hold those conicals on the powder from guys who have had the problem in their guns for years! :v :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

Paul:
I believe that's EXACTLY what was happening here:
(see the post at the bottom of pp.1) http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/258327/

 

[Rat Trapper]

Who would hunt with a conical that fits that loose? The answer is to get one that fits properly. Not bad mouth all conicals.

This is the correct answer! Barrels vary in bore sizes and in some barrels a conical will fit very tight and in others they are loose. It still is a pretty good idea to check for this when you reach your deer stand. Also how you carry your rifle will help prevent it too. A felt wad under the bullet will improve accuracy. The Hornaday great plains bullets fit very tight in my TC 50 & 54 cal Hawken rifles. In my TC 45 cal Hawken the conicals do not shoot well due to a looser bore. Maybe in the future I'll find a lot of conicals that run a little larger for the 45. Since I don't plan to hunt with that rifle I'm not looking very hard. The 45 does shoot patched round balls very well.