Bullet Size, .45 Target Rifle

[grey8833]

Hey all:

Posted this on another forum, but didn't get any real good feedback.

I am building a muzzleloading .45 English Target Rifle that has a .451 Green Mountain 1 in 18 twist barrel with shallow rifling.

I know its .451 because I pin gauged it and the barrel takes the .451 on a slip fit rejects the .452 pin (thank you to the quality department for the loan of the pin gauges).

Anyway, I need a bullet. I would like a grease groove Postell, but the only common mold size is .457. Can that be sized down to, say .450 :hmm: ? Or do I have to plunk down double the money for a custom mold? And if I get the custom mold, how close the the sizer do I have to get? I have looked at the .451 Enfield Volunteer bullet, but would prefer the Postell for longer distances, assuming I can find a range with targets out at 300+. I know Lyman has sizers for .450, but is that overforming the bullet? Taking .007 off the diameter?

Have mercy on the answers, I shoot all round ball and this is my first foray into muzzleloading match rifles that send these 400 to 550 grain bolts down range. Whole new animal from what I am used to.

Mike F

 

[Little Wattsy]

Dont flinch at the RB only crowd, long projectiless aka: arrows pre-date RB's by a smidge :grin:

Ive looked and looked: You can get a custom mold for just under $100.00. A lee will cost you $80.00+ with handles. Unless you could find EXACLY what you wanted on the shelf get what you REALLY want.

 

[tg]

The small cal. target rifles were probably the only thing that kept the sport of ML shooting going in the last half of he 19th cenrury.

 

[longcruise]

You can try here, but the Postell design might be a problem. He has a neat design your own bullet function.

Mountain Moulds

 

[grey8833]

Marmotslayer:

Went to that site. Good choice for the money if I have to go custom. Nice program, but yea, no Postell. Still, looks good for the money.

Mike

 

[longcruise]

Here's one i tried out. it's .450 in pure lead and 550 grains. By "tried out" i mean on his design program. Not a real bullet. . . . yet.

Some guys who are shooting the Lyman whitworth claim good results out to 900 yards.

 

[arquebus]

I shoot a .451, a c.1970s Navy Arms imported copy of a Rigby, but mine has a 1:22" twist. It was designed for the Lyman #457121PH 475gn bullet, but I eventually swapped over to a custom made 455gn bullet that had same OAL. I only use mine at 100m for MLAIC competition.
I size my bullets with the Lee Bullet Sizers, the ones that screw into a 7/8x14 reloading press http://leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1234219724.1646=/html/catalog/lubesize.html. Their standard production sizes include .451", .452", .454", & .457", so you could size those Postell bullets down in a couple of stages to reduce the risk of deforming them. With the Lee dies you run the bullets up through the die, nose first, so there is less chance of deforming the bullet than there is with a standard luberisizer die/top-punch. The dies list for $19.98 each, but they also will make custom sizes for $25, I've had them make me a few over the years & I've been very happy with them.

 

[arquebus]

That's a good looking bullet you designed. For Mike's application I'd probably order it as a .452 - .453", to allow for some sizing down. I've yet to find a mold that casts a perfectly round bullet, & all mine shoot better AFTER being sized.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I have a 1-18 twist GM barrels on my Renegade. I am using a Lee 459-405-HB. I size them down to .451, then I wrap them with a Paper Patch and size them again to .451 The Lee 459-405-HB is a reproduction of the 1873 trap door bullet. My gun likes the lead with this bullet soft and pure.
A guy can get the sizer dies for as little as 12.00 dollars from Midway. The mould is under 18.00 most of the time.
I also have the Lyman Whitworth mould I think it is a 457121PH. These shot good out of my gun. My gun likes them a little harder than pure lead, about 9 to 10 BHN was about right for that bullet. To be honest the Lee bullet shoots so well I don't use the Lyman much any more.
If you are thinking about target shooting out to 300 yards I would recomend paper patching. That barrel will like them. Ron

 

[greyghost]

Ron,
I'm not familiar with a paper patch. Exactly what is it and what would it look like and how would you use it? I've heard it mentioned on this forum many times but don't know what it is.
A shame to be so inexperienced at my age. [64] :surrender: :rotf:

 

[Idaho Ron]

Ron,
I'm not familiar with a paper patch. Exactly what is it and what would it look like and how would you use it? I've heard it mentioned on this forum many times but don't know what it is.
A shame to be so inexperienced at my age. [64] :surrender: :rotf:

The paper patch is like a paper jacket. The bullet is protected from the fire and barrel, and the barrels is protected from the lead. I use 9# onion paper for the patch material. I have a template I made for my bullets.
Sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 words. Ron

 

[greyghost]

You done good and that was very clear. I am assuming that you cut that little twist of paper off that shows in pic #6. Thanks Ron. :thumbsup:

 

[Idaho Ron]

Ron,

how would you use it?

I load them just like any other bullet. After they are sized to fit my barrel, they slide down with a some resistance, so they do NOT move in my gun after seated.
I use a over powder wad with 80 gr of Pyrodex P. I can shoot milk jugs with this rifle out to 250 yards easily. Ron

 

[Idaho Ron]

You done good and that was very clear. I am assuming that you cut that little twist of paper off that shows in pic #6. Thanks Ron. :thumbsup:

No I leave the twist of paper and shove it into the hollow base. When I wrap flat base bullets I still don't trim it I leave it there to help protect the base. Here is a 500 S&W bullet I shoot out of my 50 TC Renegade fast twist. Ron

 

[greyghost]

Now that's something I didn't think of. I'm shooting a .50 cal Wesson rifle with a 1 in 21 twist. I have several of a couple different cast bullets I'm going to try, but it's good to know about the S&W 500. I know this gun shoots the TC maxi hunter bullets really well. I am very interested in trying to get this gun to reach out to maybe as far as 500 yds. but don't know if it is capable without changing barrels. It's an Italian repro made for DGW and they don't even carry them anymore. I'll give her a try anyway. Thanks for the info Ron. :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Some people grease the paper with a light oil, like Jojoba oil. Others load it dry. Some use grease lubes, or olive oil.

When the bullet is fired, on top of an OP WAD, it expands, pushing the lead and the paper into the grooves. The edges of the lands CUT the paper, so that it comes off at the muzzle as the bullet is released from the barrel. If your bullet has a hollow base, you just fold the twisted paper "teat" into the hollow.

If its flat based, some simply hammer it down flat against the base. I don't know of anyone who cuts it off, since that would allow the tight wrap to come undone. The flattening of the twist occurs when you drive the bullet with the paper back through the sizing die. Again, Ron's sizer has the nose of the bullet go through first, and the bullet is pushed from its base. If there are any lead flanges, or burrs created by this process, they are at the base of the bullet and not at the nose. With paper, there are no burrs created, as all the compressing is taken by the paper- and not the lead.

 

[rkmeyer]

:wink: Very interesting. Thanks
Dusty

 

[Idaho Ron]

Now that's something I didn't think of. I'm shooting a .50 cal Wesson rifle with a 1 in 21 twist. I have several of a couple different cast bullets I'm going to try, but it's good to know about the S&W 500. I know this gun shoots the TC maxi hunter bullets really well. I am very interested in trying to get this gun to reach out to maybe as far as 500 yds. but don't know if it is capable without changing barrels. It's an Italian repro made for DGW and they don't even carry them anymore. I'll give her a try anyway. Thanks for the info Ron. :hatsoff:

Here are some groups with the 500 S&W's.
When I see 50 yard groups that cover a paper plate I have to laugh a bit. My 50 yard group here is a whisker over 1/2" and the 100 yard group is just over 1.5". Ron

 

[arquebus]

I don't know of anyone who cuts it off, since that would allow the tight wrap to come undone

I trim the tail off mine. I apply the patch slightly, but uniformly, wet. After I've twisted the end of the patch into a tail I set the bullet aside to dry. Once dry the paper is very hard & I use a small pair of end cutters to trim the tail flush with the bullet's base, & have never had them unravel on me. Going by his targets, IdahoRon's system obviously works very well for him, just wanted to explain the process I use. By the way, I've only paper-patched flat base bullets, none with cavities in the base, with that style I'd most likely tuck the tail into the cavity.

 

[Zonie]

When making these paper patched bullets I used an old dress pattern my wife didn't need for the paper.

Applied slightly dampened with water this paper shrinks down so tightly that I'm sure I could cut off the tail but because these ungrooved bullets are made for paper patching they contain the hollow base mentioned in the earlier posts.
Folding the teat down into the base is easy to do.

The 400 grain .40 caliber bullets in the lower part of the picture always provide a chuckle for me when I take them to the range with my Schuetzen.

Someone will always walk up and say something like, "Don't look like there is much powder in that cartridge!" to which I say, "That is just the bullet.". This usually results in comments like, "Holy $h*t! THAT'S just a bullet?" :rotf: