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Burned barrel ??
- Thread starter oldbadger
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I'd certainly talk to T/C before turning it into a pipe bomb.
paulvallandigham
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YOu can take the temper out of any spring- flat or coil- with as little as 450 degree F. heat. That is Way below what it might take to soften or ruin a steel barrel.
I bought a revolver that went through a fire at a gunshop. It was in the safe, but the heat was enough to burn off the wood grips. The springs were softened about half their length. The finish was all ruined by the water and smoke.
I checked the barrel for straightness, and it seemed okay. The rifling cleaned up very easily. I sent off to the manufacturer and got replacement springs, and ordered an after market rear sight to replace the factory version, which I didn't like. I ordered after-market grips made for my hands, and then had my local gunsmith blue the gun. He sand blasted, the aluminum ejector housing, and the aluminum grip frame, but I later darkened the ejector housing, with the Birchwood Casey compound. The frame I have left as is, so the revolver has a unique, 2-toned look to it. It shoots the hottest loads just fine, with no problems showing with the cylinder, or the barrel, and certainly not to the frame.
Based on my experience, and what you have described, I don't think there is anything wrong with that barrel that a good cleaning, and refinishing won't solve. A coil spring in the rear sight is a minor cost to replace. At MLer pressures and velocities, I can't see how that steel barrel will be a danger to you or anyone.
Other's opinions will vary, I am sure.
I bought a revolver that went through a fire at a gunshop. It was in the safe, but the heat was enough to burn off the wood grips. The springs were softened about half their length. The finish was all ruined by the water and smoke.
I checked the barrel for straightness, and it seemed okay. The rifling cleaned up very easily. I sent off to the manufacturer and got replacement springs, and ordered an after market rear sight to replace the factory version, which I didn't like. I ordered after-market grips made for my hands, and then had my local gunsmith blue the gun. He sand blasted, the aluminum ejector housing, and the aluminum grip frame, but I later darkened the ejector housing, with the Birchwood Casey compound. The frame I have left as is, so the revolver has a unique, 2-toned look to it. It shoots the hottest loads just fine, with no problems showing with the cylinder, or the barrel, and certainly not to the frame.
Based on my experience, and what you have described, I don't think there is anything wrong with that barrel that a good cleaning, and refinishing won't solve. A coil spring in the rear sight is a minor cost to replace. At MLer pressures and velocities, I can't see how that steel barrel will be a danger to you or anyone.
Other's opinions will vary, I am sure.
Carbon steel springs are commonly tempered between 600 and 750 degrees. If a spring has lost its temper, it has been heated to over 800 degrees or so.
That said, I would like to play devils advocate.
How many wrought iron barrels, and even mild steel barrels, have been subjected to high, welding temps well in excess of 1800 degrees with no adverse affects. A bunch. And those barrels that failed were due to bad welds, as opposed to damage to the iron.
And what about carbon loss to a barrel that has been subjected to high heat? Wrought iron has a carbon content of less that .05%. That is 5 tenths of one percent carbon content. Mild steel contains between .010% to .030% of carbon. So, what if carbon might have been lost? It isn't a big deal.
In addition, many barrels,including modern steel barrels have been charcoal blued with no ill effects. Charcoal blue requires temps of about 800 degrees.
How about all of those barrels made of 12L14 steel? That is about the softest steel anyone could imagine. I'm told, though I haven't tried it, that 12L14 steel is so soft that it can be cut with a draw knife.
So what if the barrel is soft? ML barrels are soft. Very soft. In fact soft steel is more safe in the event of an explosion than hard or tempered steel. Soft steel will open up like a banana, while tempered steel will fragment.
Someone suggested proofing the barrel. Proof away, if you must, but take common sense safety precautions.
I am waiting for someone who actually knows something about metallurgy to post their thoughts.
That said, I would like to play devils advocate.
How many wrought iron barrels, and even mild steel barrels, have been subjected to high, welding temps well in excess of 1800 degrees with no adverse affects. A bunch. And those barrels that failed were due to bad welds, as opposed to damage to the iron.
And what about carbon loss to a barrel that has been subjected to high heat? Wrought iron has a carbon content of less that .05%. That is 5 tenths of one percent carbon content. Mild steel contains between .010% to .030% of carbon. So, what if carbon might have been lost? It isn't a big deal.
In addition, many barrels,including modern steel barrels have been charcoal blued with no ill effects. Charcoal blue requires temps of about 800 degrees.
How about all of those barrels made of 12L14 steel? That is about the softest steel anyone could imagine. I'm told, though I haven't tried it, that 12L14 steel is so soft that it can be cut with a draw knife.
So what if the barrel is soft? ML barrels are soft. Very soft. In fact soft steel is more safe in the event of an explosion than hard or tempered steel. Soft steel will open up like a banana, while tempered steel will fragment.
Someone suggested proofing the barrel. Proof away, if you must, but take common sense safety precautions.
I am waiting for someone who actually knows something about metallurgy to post their thoughts.
IMO the low carbon steel that todays muzzleloading barrels are made from would have a slight degradation of its mechanical properties.
This thought is based on the differences between Cold Rolled Steel and Hot Rolled Steel.
Typically a Cold Rolled material will have enhanced strength properties due to the process of working the steel into its shape while it is relatively cool.
For a typical low carbon steel like AISI1018 the mechanical properties are:
Tensile: HRS= 58KSI, CRS= 64 KSI (1000 pounds/square inch)
Yield: HRS= 32 KSI, CRS= 54 KSI
Elongation: HRS= 25%, CRS= 15%
Hardness: HRS= 116, CRS= 126 Brinell
If the barrel was made out of the low carbon "leaded steel" known as 12L14 it has the following mechanical properties:
Tensile: HRS= 57 KSI, CRS= 78 KSI
Yield: HRS= 34 KSI, CRS= 60 KSI
Elongation: HRS= 22%, CRS= 10%
Hardness: HRS= 121, CRS= 163 Brinell
As you can see there is a loss of strength but the question really is, "Is the material strong enough to use in a muzzleloading rifle that is shooting black powder?"
My data on Wrought Iron is very limited however I personally feel that even in the hot rolled condition modern steels are safe for muzzleloading barrels however I will concede that after a barrel has been in a fire oxidation in the threads may weaken them slightly.
For this reason, I would limit the barrel to shooting round balls and avoid conicals as the lower breech pressure would be an added safety factor.
As for the thought that 12L14 is softer or weaker than an unleaded low carbon steel I suggest that one takes a look at the numbers I posted above.
12L14 is stronger and harder than 1018 steel, Its only negative is it has a reduced percentage of elongation.
The lead in the leaded steels serves as a lubricant for the cutting tools making it easier to machine at higher speeds with less tool wear.
This thought is based on the differences between Cold Rolled Steel and Hot Rolled Steel.
Typically a Cold Rolled material will have enhanced strength properties due to the process of working the steel into its shape while it is relatively cool.
For a typical low carbon steel like AISI1018 the mechanical properties are:
Tensile: HRS= 58KSI, CRS= 64 KSI (1000 pounds/square inch)
Yield: HRS= 32 KSI, CRS= 54 KSI
Elongation: HRS= 25%, CRS= 15%
Hardness: HRS= 116, CRS= 126 Brinell
If the barrel was made out of the low carbon "leaded steel" known as 12L14 it has the following mechanical properties:
Tensile: HRS= 57 KSI, CRS= 78 KSI
Yield: HRS= 34 KSI, CRS= 60 KSI
Elongation: HRS= 22%, CRS= 10%
Hardness: HRS= 121, CRS= 163 Brinell
As you can see there is a loss of strength but the question really is, "Is the material strong enough to use in a muzzleloading rifle that is shooting black powder?"
My data on Wrought Iron is very limited however I personally feel that even in the hot rolled condition modern steels are safe for muzzleloading barrels however I will concede that after a barrel has been in a fire oxidation in the threads may weaken them slightly.
For this reason, I would limit the barrel to shooting round balls and avoid conicals as the lower breech pressure would be an added safety factor.
As for the thought that 12L14 is softer or weaker than an unleaded low carbon steel I suggest that one takes a look at the numbers I posted above.
12L14 is stronger and harder than 1018 steel, Its only negative is it has a reduced percentage of elongation.
The lead in the leaded steels serves as a lubricant for the cutting tools making it easier to machine at higher speeds with less tool wear.
shortstring
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Anybody concerned about this ought to watch someone solder a set of double barrels together. The heat turns the barrels blue as the sky. If they ever had any temper it's gone after the soldering. I've heard it said that the old timers used to but a new barrel in a big wood pile fire & let it burn out & cool to end up with a dead soft barrel. Low carbon steels can be heated to red & quenched in water without making them brittle or hard.
-----years ago I was browning a TC barrel--warming it on a wood stove--not watching closely enough it turned red--I used that barrel in several shooting matches and did very well--45 cal. perc. shooting up to 50 gr 3f. any heavier load the darn thing would knock you half simple--never shot a muzzleloader that kicked like that TC does-----
I have soldered a couple of ribs on old double guns and one was a Damascus 10 bore muzzle loader. This was 25 or so years back and the fellow I did it for is still shooting it as far as I know. I told him at the time that I wouldn't recommend him actually shooting it (not because of re-soldering the ribs) but because of pits in the bore and on the exterior. Proof the barrel if it is not warped and if it holds up to 2 double ball & double charges it should be fine.
Yes, you mentioned that...I mean what kind of TC barrel...what model is it?oldbadger said:
Other than the Firestorm model which TC classifies as a traditional ML, I think all of TC's other ML models which have removable breechplugs are inlines
No, breechplugs on TC's sidelock MLs are not designed to be user removable (except for the relatively recent 'Firestorm').
If that barrel is say from a TC Hawken, and the breechplug is loose/removable, that would be a major problem and I definitely would not shoot it.
Other's mileage may vary
If that barrel is say from a TC Hawken, and the breechplug is loose/removable, that would be a major problem and I definitely would not shoot it.
Other's mileage may vary
I agree.
If the breech plug can be easily unscrewed, something is happening here that doesn't sound at all right.
If the breech plug can be easily unscrewed, something is happening here that doesn't sound at all right.
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