bush og blades for knives and hawks??

[Old Creek]

along with all the other irons i have in the fire i was pondering tryin to make my own hawk or belt axe, what do you blade smiths think about old bush hog blades for edged tool making?? i also have quite a few snapper rider blades that dont work on the mower i have now. i have seen lots of mower blade stuff on the net and youtube but i have enough going on that i dont want to waste my time on something that want be servicable.

creek

 

[LRB]

Chances are they would work, but mystery steels are always a risk. You will need to experiment with a piece and see how it behaves in forging and heat treat. With some research you may be able to find out what steel these blades were made from.

 

[bennypapa]

along with all the other irons i have in the fire i was pondering tryin to make my own hawk or belt axe, what do you blade smiths think about old bush hog blades for edged tool making?? i also have quite a few snapper rider blades that dont work on the mower i have now. i have seen lots of mower blade stuff on the net and youtube but i have enough going on that i dont want to waste my time on something that want be servicable.

creek

If you don't want to waste time, buy known good steel.
search for posts by wick. He has repeated the techniques for heat treating O-1 steel many times. This will avoid all the experimenting time you would have to put in to figure out how to properly heat treat your bush hog blades.
I'm sure it's possible to use them but the time involved in experimenting goes against your stated goal of not wasting time.
Buy some steel and enjoy the final product.
Ben

 

[Old Creek]

good advice. I will probably cut a bush hog blade into a smaler block of stock anad keep it at hand but contact one of the nearby smittys to source a small quanity of a proper steel. one of the draw backs of living in the sticks is not being able to just go to the local metal shop and buy what they had left over from a tool making project, there is a shop close to where I work that will sale by the foot but they mainly cater to the structural crowd so its mostly just cold rolled angle and flat. I used to go to a scrap yard and they would sell by the pound pretty cheap but I called them a couple of weeks ago and the guy told me he couldn't do it anymore because now the goverment pays him a subsidy as a designated recycler, I said to him, so basicly the goverment is paying you not to sale to me? he said he never thought of it that way but yeah, if I sale to you I lose my status as a recycler and become a retailer.
Who'd a thunk it? :hmm:

creek

 

[ZUG]

If this Hawk or Knife is for you and you want to "perfect" your skills at the forge then I say go ahead and "play" - it will not cost you any money if you screw up plus you can try your hand at heat treating. Yes - it will be time spent learning but is that not what this "game" is all about? The steel you have mentioned was designed to be tough so it is not garbage you just have to discover how to work it to it's best potential - good luck!

 

[bennypapa]

I have to agree with ZUG. It depends on your purposes. saving time = using known steels BUT honing smithing skills = practicing with hot metal.

About scrap steel. Find an auto scrap yard and ask about leaf and coil springs. They should be willing to sell something as an auto part at reasonable prices per pound.

 

[Old Creek]

Thanks fellas. I have some old hevy leaf springs off a old hog trailer that i turned upside down to put a gravity fed diesel tank on and a couple of the guys are changing out what is basicly a heavy duty roll up door next week and I told them to pull the coil springs for me so I'll have those to play with. I also have been scraping around for a brake drum and finaly got one today that came off of a pretty good size truck, it must be 14 or 16 inches deep and weighs enough that by the time me and the guy helping me carried it the twenty feet or so to my truck we was winded. keep in mind that we both passede prime many moons ago. I wanted to scout for mayhaws tomorrow but the weather is lookin iffy so I may be building a forge.

Thanks again.

creek

 

[LRB]

That's all well and good, but you will still be working a mystery steel. I would be more prone to try the Bushhog blades considering what they were made for. Modern vehicle springs are made from a dozen or so different steels.

 

[B.Habermehl]

A long time ago I used a lot of heavy overhead door springs for raw material for making steels for flint and steel fire kits. One spring will supply enough steel to make a good hundred fire steels. BJH

 

[Old Creek]

more good info!!

Wick, these springs are probably circa 1960's early 70's mobile home springs, would they be more likely to be a better steel?? I get ya about the tempering and i aint getting into the buissiness just tinkering right now to see if me and my wife can get the nack of drawing steel. I am gonna get her signed up with Fl artisan blacksmiths ass'n so we can attend some of the demos here in our neck of the woods, this is really her party but since I am the designated welder/fabricator/fund raising chairman i figure i may as well get in on the dancing to

creek

 

[LRB]

Older the better, but it is not so much the quality of the steel as it is the alloy mix of them. Just something to keep in mind. Leaf springs can often be micro cracked, and you won't know until you are well into working it, and sometimes not until the heat treat. Not trying to discourage, but just be aware of the possibilities you may encounter. Just to learn forging and shaping, you can use any steel. Even low carb, but if you want to make a dependable quality knife or tool, it is good to begin with a known steel so that you can research its properties, and know more about how you can work it best.

 

[Old Creek]

thanks Wick. that all makes sense. I aint much of a computer guy other than information gathering and I get alot of information/mis-information from youtube so I may wear you guys out trying to seperate the two. on the bright side I dont have high speed internet at home and have to try to sneak in a youtube video at the end of the day just before I leave work so the volume I get is smaller than most. I appreciate all you fellas help, it is sorely needed I can assure ya.

creek

 

[Rifleman1776]

That's all well and good, but you will still be working a mystery steel. I would be more prone to try the Bushhog blades considering what they were made for. Modern vehicle springs are made from a dozen or so different steels.

The master knifemakers of the American Bladesmith Society uses, and reccomends, the same steel as is used for springs on large trucks. That is what they purchase for use and training at the Arkansas Knifemakes Association and school in Old Washington. That is in the same shop as James Black used to make the first Bowie knife. (first hand info I was told at a visit to the shop and school) Those guys know a thing or three about knife making.
Personally, I believe in trying things and I dislike waste. Bushog blades and vehicle flat springs are tough steel. Worth a try. I'm not a knife maker, metallurgist or very good craftsman. But my gut is telling me a 'hawk or knife made from those steels, propery heated and treated would make a near indestructable blade.

 

[LRB]

Same steel in some cases, 5160, but the smart ones buy it in fresh bar stock because of its reputation for micro and fatigue cracks from being used as vehicle springs. Its popularity for bladesmiths has more to do with it being an easy steel to use for passing the journeymans test, than being a great knife steel. It is a great steel for choppers, but falls short on edge holding as a skinner when compared to many others. There are more master smiths using other steels than 5160 for their trade, than do.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Same steel in some cases, 5160, but the smart ones buy it in fresh bar stock because of its reputation for micro and fatigue cracks from being used as vehicle springs. Its popularity for bladesmiths has more to do with it being an easy steel to use for passing the journeymans test, than being a great knife steel. It is a great steel for choppers, but falls short on edge holding as a skinner when compared to many others. There are more master smiths using other steels than 5160 for their trade, than do.

That post got me to thinking. These days that part comes slowly. :wink:
The bladesmiths I was referring to forge their blades. Fatigue and micro cracks would be forged out and the blades are layered for additional strength.
The journeymans test, as I have read it in their publication, involves some serious chopping then some hair shaving for a sharpness test as well as cutting the hanging rope and more.
I'm probably opening a whole new issuse asking the rhetorical question: how could it get better?
The stock removal guys might have preferences with ease of grinding, polishing, etc. But, I wonder, are their blades better? Would they pass the the journeyman's test?

 

[buffcreekforge]

I blacksmith and have for 20+ years. In my humble opinion, you would not remove micro cracks or fatigue from steel unless you worked it at welding heat. Below that temperature, all you would be doing is moving the cracks around in the piece. Just my opinion, mind you, others here are far more qualified to weigh in.

Your Humble Servant,

Just Dave

 

[LRB]

Black Dave is correct. It would require welding heat. A stock removal knife can be heat treated to pass the journeyman test, just as easily as a forged blade of the same steel. The forging has nothing to do with the performance of the blade. There are only two basic reasons to forge a blade. One is to make a radically shaped blade that would be impractical to cut out. The other is because that is just the way you want to do it. The end result for either method depends on the HT. The journeymans test actually does not usually produce a great heat treat, and it isn't expected to. The test is a test of a smiths ability to control the heat, and not how good the heat treat really is, as long as it is good enough for the tasks required in the test. 5160 steel is considered the easiest steel to successfully do this test with, and can be HTed much better under better conditions. However, even at it's best, it is not an ideal steel for long term edge retention for general cutting, but excels as a chopping blade because of its shock resistance.