Buying A Used Muzzle Loader

[FishDFly]

If you go to your local store or pawn shop to buy a used muzzle loader, they are not going to let you take it completely apart at the counter, this I can accept.

My question is, if you buy one from the classifieds here, e-bay, auctionarms, gunbroker or TOW, how far can and should you take one apart for inspection before accepting it?

The reason that I ask, is the I recently bought a T/C which was advertised (not here) as "possibly" unfired. The initial inspection showed a couple of rust spots in the muzzle within an inch of the crown. Initial cleaning of the bore showed it clean and acceptable. I ran a mike along the barrel and did not detect any bulges and accepted the gun. Well, not a really a good idea on part.

I pulled the trigger assembly off and did a trigger job on it. I noticed some rust particles in it which I used a small brush to get rid of. Trigger pull is one of the best that I have seen on a T/C.

Pulled the lock off and had a stroke, there was pitting on some parts of the lock. More pitting than a person would expect from a "possibly" unfired gun. Initial thought was, is this a flood gun?

I can take care of the problem and have the necessary parts.

My question, how far should a person take a gun apart he receives in the mail for inspection and approval? Can you take the barrel off, trigger assembly off and lock off and dis-assemble all?
Is this a case if you have the "time, talent and tools" is dis-assembly is okay?

Some will say, return the gun, but I sent an e-mail to the person and accepted the gun. I was raised, you live by the contract and you die by the contract. I accepted the gun and will stand by by my acceptance.

Now, I need not to repeat my mistake. What do you do in buying a used gun that comes to the house?

RDE

 

[walruskid1]

clean the bore, drop a bore light down and inspect the barrel. check the hammer stays at full cock and check the trigger pull. check the stock for cracks. thats about it. i don't usually buy anything over 500 bucks. if its a big ticket item (usually centerfire), i'll let my gunsmith eyeball it.

 

[bob1961]

i can have my T/C hawken apart and back together in 5 min fer inspection....

1. pull the ram rod....

2. unscrew lock bolt, pull lock out....

3. pull the wedge pin & barrel....

4. reassemble in reverse order :v ..........bob

 

[Mad Professor]

This will not apply to all as I've only brought "hawken" style guns.

Take the barrel off and clean it, put a light through the touchhole/cleanout hole, do you see pits?

Pull the lock off and inspect it. Is is it covered with residue, if so clean it. Take it apart and check all the contact surfaces, very carefully for pitting. After cleaning lightly lube and see if the action is smooth. Put it and the barrel back in and see if the nipple lines up with the hammer. If a flinter see if it throws a good spark, is the touchhole about level with the pan.

Check the stock for cracks particualrly about the wrist and inside where the tang, inletting for the lock, and barrel meet. I've seen the eschuhcons for the wedge and/or wood about been buggered up. Does the metal pieces meet all the wood surfaces smoothly. Is the barrel inletted well and does the tang breech plug fit up well

If everything except the barrel is pristine and you can bargin a better price consider it. Some guns like TC and Lyman/Investarms have "drop in" barrels relatively cheap.

 

[Robert an saa fan]

I think if you have "the time, talent & correct tools" it is o.k. to disassemble/inspect a gun like a T/C Hawken by removing major parts/assemblies.

Also, very important is asking direct questions before buying especially when "red flags" are raised. Most sellers are reasonably honest... but if you get back "weasel words"...caveat emptor. Black powder gun barrels are often given misleading condition descriptions.

I see people getting cheated on ebay all the time buying things like flasks that are misrepresented or unknowingly presented as valuable antiques when they are replica/reproductions.

If a gun is not "as described" it is not morally wrong to return it for a refund. However, you generally still have to pay shipping both ways; so best to ask good questions before buying and read "between the lines".

Have been burned a few times and it is no fun!

 

You said it White Buffalo. I would add, however, that the potential buyer should run a patch or two down the bore to clean out any over abundance of oil or vasaline deposits intended to hide rusty or rough spots. Then - scope out the bore. My recommendation comes under the heading of: This Happened to Me as I failed to do this years ago and bought a rifle with rusty patches all over the bore. It had just enugh vasavine depoited that the bore light did not pick them up at the gun show. :cursing:

 

[bpbrs]

My question, how far should a person take a gun apart he receives in the mail for inspection and approval?

I sell as is? PERIOD
Once upon a time I sold a firearm, and it was returned. His excuse was it was not as advertized.
The purchaser had removed good parts and replaced with his old manure. This turned a good Winchester to junk.
Then th edirt bag deleted his profile and turned up as another person.

You purchase anything from me it is "AS IS". I don't care what Gun Broker or Gun's America say, print, ask , demand or even if they remove my account.
To many dealers have been burned in the past because a firearm was taken apart and returned with screws buggered up, stocks cracked, sights broken, scopes dented.
I can not sell a returned firearm till I go through it again. Time is money and I ain't Wal_mart.

Bill

 

[roundball]

One thing that has definitely helped the past few years is the digital camera...make a detailed, closeup photo inventory of the firearms condition, with good lighting, and include them as part of the sales transaction...only takes a few minutes and lasts forever..and frankly, against a striking background like a large sheet of red cloth, they really make the product stand out too.

I include this disclaimer right up front:
"3 day inspection/return/refund minus return shipping if returned unfired in the exact same condition as originally shipped to you."

Never had one returned so far but if one got returned in different condition from the photos, Iwouldn't give a refund and would have the photos to back me up.

I guess an internal part hidden from view would be a different story of course, but normally, two way shipping costs would pay for most replacement parts anyway, unless an antique...maybe a low risk way to deal with antiques would be through a reputable gun shop / antique dealer on that end, asking (possibly paying) for an inspection before turning it over to the buyer?

 

[FishDFly]

Thanks to all for your answers and your insight as buyers and sellers.

RDE

 

[MikeC]

If you can find what your looking for at Track Of The Wolf I would go with them. You will pay a little more but they are respectable and honest with their descriptions. They also offer an inspection period.

Not that much to a MZ to inspect, takes but a few minutes as someone mentioned above to disassemble, inspect and reassemble.

 

[Robert an saa fan]

bpb - agree with your post regarding collectable guns. My response was regarding a common shooter like a T/C Hawken.

Have heard many stories of sellers being burned by deadbeats swapping parts and/or buggering things up and returning gun.

It is a jungle out there! :cursing:

 

[RedFeather]

You said it White Buffalo. I would add, however, that the potential buyer should run a patch or two down the bore to clean out any over abundance of oil or vasaline deposits intended to hide rusty or rough spots. Then - scope out the bore. My recommendation comes under the heading of: This Happened to Me as I failed to do this years ago and bought a rifle with rusty patches all over the bore. It had just enugh vasavine depoited that the bore light did not pick them up at the gun show. :cursing:

Hey, I had forgotten about that old trick. A generous swabbing with gun oil can make a bore shine like Christmas morning. Thanks for the reminder. I'll have to remember that the next time I'm out shopping.

As to how much should you legitimately tear a gun down, I think that a basic fiedl stripping is ok as long as you are careful with the bolts. Especially on a patent breech where you can easily take out the wedge and pull the barrel. Sometimes you can tell if an otherwise pristine gun has been fired by taking out the cleanout screw, but you can't force it if stuck. And pulling the sidelock off should not harm the gun.

On this particular gun, I believe you mentioned that the seller wasn't sure if it had been fired or not. Maybe it was used once or twice and the owner just didn't clean any fouling that had gotten beneath the lock? A lot of these sellers don't do much more than a Max Factor cleanup on traded guns, looking for a quick turn around. They don't go to the bother of really examining them. Just wipe them down with gun oil or preservative and set them on the table. One shop I know has guns that are so lathered up I have to wash my hands after looking at them.

If you buy and the gun really isn't as advertised, it's best to pay the shipping and return it. First, you will most likely have a lasting negative association with the gun and, second, there aren't that many spare parts (like a new lock) that are cheaper than postage. Most of my internet auction deals have been positive, but I've come to accept I will have a bad one now and again.