Cabela's 54 Cal Hawken

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bull3540 said:
If the bore is good then you got an excellent deal. Start with a .530 RB, .015 lubed patches and 60 grains of 2f Goex and work up an accurate load from there.


Tried a .530 RB with .015" cotton patch and OP wad over 65 grains of 2F T-7. Combo not tight enough, was able to seat ball into barrel with just thumb pressure. Five shots "grouped" into 6 inches at 50 yards. Velocities were all over the place and patches were shredded.

I'll be trying a .018" ticking patch next range trip Wednesday or Thursday.

Tom
 
I have had the same issue with ALL of my Investarms rifles (4 of them), using CCI #11 caps.
BUT, the 58 was the most accurate rifle that I have yet shot, 3 shot groups through the same hole at 25 yds, less that 1" at 50 yds with 'SEATING OF THE PRIMER' shot each time before it went Bang
 
If the .018 ticking doesn't give you good results then I'd then try a .535 ball and go back to the .015 patching. Also know that new barrels made by Investarms often need some final polishing of the bores in order to get the best accuracy and it may take 100 shots or so for that to happpen. There are also various ways to speed that process along involving steel wool or Scotch Bright pads wrapped around a cleaning jag. Since your rifle seemed to have been shot only a few times it's possible that the bore just needs a little more polishing. That was always the case with 3 of the 4 Lyman rifles that I've owned, the exception being bought used with the original owner having polished the bore before deciding to sell it.
 
The 1-48" twist story dates back to the 60's when Navy Arms and others first imported the Zouave Rifled Muskets. They had a 1-48" twist, 6 lands & grooves (actually, 3 of each) only .003" deep. This is the proper set-up for Minie type projectiles. We soon found out that patched balls didn't work well with such shallow rifling, especially with more than 40 to 50 grains of powder. It now appears that the patching slipped across the rifling at higher speed since it had difficulty gripping shallow grooves, at least that's the thinking.

It really had nothing to do with the actual twist rate since a couple guys named Hawkens from St. Louis did pretty well with the same twist rate. The difference was that they used cut rifling, .010" inch deep with twice the lands and grooves. Problem is that type rifling depth doesn't work well with Minie or Maxi type projectiles, they need shallower and much wider grooves. There's also a difference between cut rifling and button (pressed) rifling, found in many modern guns from overseas. Although button rifling with multiple grooves and lands works adequately, it's not as long lasting as cut rifling. It took a fair amount of time and powder to figure some of this out.

A few things did become clear about faster rifling twist though. Patched balls can be fired from fast twist barrels but not at higher velocity. Smaller bores work much better than about .45 and up. The best example is TC's use of 1-30" twist in the .30 and .36 caliber Cherokee & Seneca rifles. The little .30 will shoot all day with 10 grains of FFFg at about the same velocity as a .22LR. That's 700 shots from a pound of powder. Most any rifle can shoot most any projectile, but you have to match rifling type with projectile speed. Somewhat simplified, but this is what it amounts to. Patched balls with more and deeper grooves, elongated projectiles with less and shallower grooves. :hmm:
 
Wes/Tex said:
The 1-48" twist story dates back to the 60's when Navy Arms and others first imported the Zouave Rifled Muskets. They had a 1-48" twist, 6 lands & grooves (actually, 3 of each) only .003" deep. This is the proper set-up for Minie type projectiles. We soon found out that patched balls didn't work well with such shallow rifling, especially with more than 40 to 50 grains of powder. It now appears that the patching slipped across the rifling at higher speed since it had difficulty gripping shallow grooves, at least that's the thinking.

It really had nothing to do with the actual twist rate since a couple guys named Hawkens from St. Louis did pretty well with the same twist rate. The difference was that they used cut rifling, .010" inch deep with twice the lands and grooves. Problem is that type rifling depth doesn't work well with Minie or Maxi type projectiles, they need shallower and much wider grooves. There's also a difference between cut rifling and button (pressed) rifling, found in many modern guns from overseas. Although button rifling with multiple grooves and lands works adequately, it's not as long lasting as cut rifling. It took a fair amount of time and powder to figure some of this out.

A few things did become clear about faster rifling twist though. Patched balls can be fired from fast twist barrels but not at higher velocity. Smaller bores work much better than about .45 and up. The best example is TC's use of 1-30" twist in the .30 and .36 caliber Cherokee & Seneca rifles. The little .30 will shoot all day with 10 grains of FFFg at about the same velocity as a .22LR. That's 700 shots from a pound of powder. Most any rifle can shoot most any projectile, but you have to match rifling type with projectile speed. Somewhat simplified, but this is what it amounts to. Patched balls with more and deeper grooves, elongated projectiles with less and shallower grooves. :hmm:


My velocities ran between 1287 fps and 1700 fps with totally shredded patches. Patches were not burned but I believe that is due to the OP wad I used.

Tom
 
bull3540 said:
If the .018 ticking doesn't give you good results then I'd then try a .535 ball and go back to the .015 patching. Also know that new barrels made by Investarms often need some final polishing of the bores in order to get the best accuracy and it may take 100 shots or so for that to happpen. There are also various ways to speed that process along involving steel wool or Scotch Bright pads wrapped around a cleaning jag. Since your rifle seemed to have been shot only a few times it's possible that the bore just needs a little more polishing. That was always the case with 3 of the 4 Lyman rifles that I've owned, the exception being bought used with the original owner having polished the bore before deciding to sell it.

Yes, besides trying the .530" RB with the .018" patch, I do plan on going to the larger ball with the .015" patch as I have a whole bunch of those.

Tom
 
GaCop said:
bull3540 said:
If the .018 ticking doesn't give you good results then I'd then try a .535 ball and go back to the .015 patching. Also know that new barrels made by Investarms often need some final polishing of the bores in order to get the best accuracy and it may take 100 shots or so for that to happpen. There are also various ways to speed that process along involving steel wool or Scotch Bright pads wrapped around a cleaning jag. Since your rifle seemed to have been shot only a few times it's possible that the bore just needs a little more polishing. That was always the case with 3 of the 4 Lyman rifles that I've owned, the exception being bought used with the original owner having polished the bore before deciding to sell it.

Yes, besides trying the .530" RB with the .018" patch, I do plan on going to the larger ball with the .015" patch as I have a whole bunch of those.

Tom

Shot again yesterday even though it was windy and cold. Tried the combo of .018" ticking patch, .530"RB with an OP wad on 60 grains of FFg T-7. Velocity averaged at 1550 fps with an SD of 14.0 and an ES of 25.0

Accuracy with the first five at 50 yards averaged out to be 3.9" for five shots with four going into 2.55".

Same load at 60 yards with the wind a bit calmer yielded a three shot group of 2.23". I called it a day after this as my fingers were getting numb.

Nothing earth shattering accuracy wise but it is starting to improve over the groups shot Sunday.
I did weigh each ball (15) used and the heaviest was 244.5gr and lightest was 224.0gr.

The recovered patches showed a bit of tearing in the area where the ball bears on the lands/grooves so I believe this patch will work fine after the bore is smoothed up a bit.

The front sight on this rifle is the exact size of the bulls eye I was shooting at 60 yards. I don't like it to be that coarse but will have to live with it for now.

Next trip will be with some Maxi-Balls I just got in from TOW.

Tom
 
GaCop said:
Won this one on Gunbroker ($185 shipped) and received it yesterday. Previous owner said it was a backup gun to his TC and was shot very little. I have to believe that as the rifle looks like it was just taken out of the box for the first time.

I'm quite impressed by the quality and workmanship. It looks a lot like a TC. It has a checkered stock, iron furniture, fully adjustable rear sight and a recoil pad along with sling swivels. The stock appears to be walnut with a nice satin finish. Barrel is rifled 1 in 48". I have no way at the moment to post pictures, sorry.

Tom

Tried some 445gr Maxi-Balls from TOW over 60 grains of FFG T-7. Maxi's were lubed with Bore Butter. Velocity averaged 1200 fps for 6 shots but accuracy was terrible at a bit more than 8" impacting 6" lower than point of aim at 70 yards. So far, RB loads shoot far better than bullets.

Tom
 

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