Calculating group size

[SgtErv]

Some neat points in here.

I like the idea of the first shot principle for hunting. It's really the one that counts - I think it is the hardest for me to get dialed in, too. I go too long between shooting, probably, because I find that I have to settle down and consciously apply what Ive learned. Maybe I should do that before I take the first shot, but, hey, I get excited to shoot :grin: I get more trigger time in summer and shoot way better, first shot included. Do guys warm up before matches? Just curious.

But it gets me thinking: while the "event" of a shot is an individual occurrence, and so strings are maybe not a reflection of your load, barrel fouling, amount of lube, etc, for example, they are a good reflection of what the shooter is doing. I pull a hair to the left consistently. I don't think that's the gun, load, or sights, because Ive shot different guns and had the same thing happen. Whatever bad habit it is, Ive learned to compensate for it and get them in the black.

Interesting discussion

 

[coloradoclyde]

The way I look at it.....If you can't shoot a decent group.....You probably won't hit the bull's-eye or the bull....
And all else is bull!.... :haha:

 

[bender20]

Very good point Clyde accuracy is all about repeatability whether it is shooting a group or shooting a couple weeks or months after the load work up and sight in.

 

[meanmike8665]

Yes, we try to shoot once a week for a couple of weeks before going to a big shoot. Then shoot re-entry or a practice target or two before shooting important matches. When shooting important matches always post a sighted. If there is a light change or a wind charge sometime we go back to the sighted target.
CC, I agree to me, if the shots are not close to touching at 50 yards it is not a good group. (off the bench).
Off hand should be less than 3 inches.

Now a word about " fliers" , I think most are caused by miss reading the wind. The only place where we shoot that the wind is not a big deal is Grants Pass,Oregon and we shoot our best target there. Wind and light effect the group and should be considered when sighting a rifle.



Michael

 

[BrownBear]

Wind and light effect the group and should be considered when sighting a rifle.

There ya go. According to the weather service, our terrain has measurable wind 90% of the time. We also average something like 90 inches of rain per year. Lotta wind changing directions constantly in the rough terrain, lotta rain or at least very high humidity, lotta days where it's cloudy one minute sunny the next. "Groups" move all over the place, stretch sideways.

Ain't no nevermind to me what shots 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 or 100 do. I wanna know where shot #1 is going. Up to me to get the rifle sighted right, then read the conditions for that all important single shot. If I can do that, then of course I can do it again for subsequent shots. But why should I use my powder and my lead to make anyone else feel right about the world? Y'all keep on keeping on at the range. I'm going hunting. :v

 

[meanmike8665]

Good for you, go hunting. The OP was talking about Traditional match shooting not hunting. FYI, this is going to be a good shooting year for me, I will spend 30 to 40 days of competition shooting. Do you hunters get that many days of shooting. I quit hunting when I found out I enjoyed shooting more than hunting. Please don't take this the wrong way,but there are several way to enjoy our sport, not just hunting!

Michael

 

[BrownBear]

...I will spend 30 to 40 days of competition shooting. Do you hunters get that many days of shooting.

Sorry you get so little shooting. I can't remember the last year I got in less than 100 days of hunting with a 5-month deer season, a 9-month ptarmigan season, a 4-month duck season and a year round snowshoe hare season. I also get close to 100 days of just dinking around shooting rocks, driftwood, spruce cones and ice chunks. Heck, seashells on the beach account for as much lead as any of the others.

The OP may have been talking about measuring groups for matches, but I sincerely doubt there was a single traditional match conducted with calculators, formulas or computers, or any measuring device more complicated than a hunk of string.

Match shooters back then were most assuredly hunters too, septin maybe the big city folks shooting in their suits and ties and bowler hats. :rotf:

Go on shooting your matches and twirling your calculator. But it's not the only measure of fun and tradition with muzzleloaders.

 

[meanmike8665]

I think I said, there is more than one way to enjoy our sport, by the way I don't use a calculator in my shooting. I still manage to work and the closest shooting range is a 60 mile round trip, so I think I do pretty well. You sure do hunt a lot, do you harvest game every time out or are those days the season is open?

 

[Rockthrower]

In terms of eliminating the error(s) introduced by flyers, why not shoot 5-shot groups and measure the best four. Typically, I get one flyer in each 5-shot group--the same problem Dr Mann addressed.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Controlling and counting flyers is why we shoot groups....to mitigate and eliminate that variable.....

 

[coloradoclyde]

I also get close to 100 days of just dinking around shooting rocks, driftwood, spruce cones and ice chunks. Heck, seashells on the beach account for as much lead as any of the others.

Do you ever miss?

 

[hanshi]

To no one in particular, just a general statement of opinion. Accuracy can't be boiled down to what a gun can do, where it will hit, etc. Accuracy, and subsequent poi, relies on a "shooting system" composed of a rifle, ammo and a shooter. Accuracy is how well these compliment each other. Obviously, some "systems" are more efficient than others. Doesn't matter if the target is live, paper or steel; same principles apply. This means that each shooter (complete system) determines how their specific accuracy is to be evaluated. One shot or twenty, makes no difference; what makes a difference is whether or not a system, you, for example, can accomplish set goals.

 

[meanmike8665]

So,what is a flier? If I have four shots touching and fifth is a 1/2 inch away is that a flier? Is the flier caused by a wind shift I didn't catch, did I make a mistake? If the shot goes really wild, I am looking for a blown patch or something in my loading chain, was there something wrong with the ball. All things that can effect a shot. If I only count 4 of 5 I may never know why my 5 shot groups aren't very good.

Michael

 

[meanmike8665]

Do you ever miss... that's funny! I wished I could shoot 100 day's a year. If I could shoot that much I might never miss!
My friends and I talk about how we used to shoot better, I used to shoot in competition 3 times a month 30 shots per match now I lucky to shoot 20 shots a month. Life changes, oh well.
Michael

 

[coloradoclyde]

Right! :thumbsup:
We can't "cherry pick" the shots we want just to impress our friends.....

Shooting a group is both gun accuracy and shooter accuracy....

Fliers count!

 

[coloradoclyde]

Do you ever miss... that's funny! I wished I could shoot 100 day's a year. If I could shoot that much I might never miss!
My friends and I talk about how we used to shoot better, I used to shoot in competition 3 times a month 30 shots per match now I lucky to shoot 20 shots a month. Life changes, oh well.
Michael

Yep! I hear ya... :haha: we're both in the same boat...If spent lead was money I would be Millionaire..... :wink:

 

[gary peacemaker]

Quit bitching perfect shooting is greatest joy away if you're hunting or chasing paper just be thankful you could still pull the trigger . I try to shoot as much as possible I had an accident with my motorcycle now I shoot low and left but I'm still out there and I work on it . So quit bitching about how many days how many animals .for shots the fifth is a half inch off be glad you could shoot I have friends that can't anymore you do your thing I will do mine the next guy will do his own and I'm proud to know you will sit down drink a beer swap llies. When its done everyone will feel good you guys take it easy don't argue so much

 

[coloradoclyde]

Quit bitching perfect shooting is greatest joy away if you're hunting or chasing paper just be thankful you could still pull the trigger . I try to shoot as much as possible I had an accident with my motorcycle now I shoot low and left but I'm still out there and I work on it . So quit bitching about how many days how many animals

Not sure who or what you are referring to.....or how the adversity of your own personal situation applies, or is any different than our own individual difficulties...

It's just a friendly conversation....

 

[gary peacemaker]

Didn't mean any more difficult than anybody else . If one shot drops the animal. Then why argue over how many shots you put in a target .my buddy is all over the target at a hundred yards but one shot drops every animal he hunts.some people can shoot targets some can't. It seems this post was getting to who can shoot at targets and who can hunt and how many shots were taken. We are all in it for the enjoyment of shooting bp and some hunting .i am concerned about shot placement so I work on where my prb is going point of aim. Once back then I will hunt again.

 

[meanmike8665]

I am not complaining, I enjoy every shoot and practice session I get, sometimes I get frustrated, I don't get to shoot as much as I like for several reasons including health or taking on a new shooter who have to break some really bad habits. They are certainly worth every minute I spent with them when they shoot their first good group( 5 shots )!

Michael