Caliber according to PA regulations?

[talkingamoeba]

Hello, When the regulation states that small game can be hunted with a .40 cal or less, is that bore size or ball size? Example 2: for deer the reg states .44 cal or bigger, is that bore or ball? Thank you.

 

[Ft. Jefferson]

Typically, it means the size stamped on the barrel! Granted, the stamp is not always visible. Bore size, not ball size!

 

[zimmerstutzen]

PA was never a paragon of clarity.

For flint lock for deer, the "firearm must have open sights and be a .44 caliber or larger single barrel long gun." (Approved April 2009)

For small game, the muzzle loader rifle or pistol must be 40 caliber or smaller. (Except muzzle loading shot guns with fine shot) Caliber restrictions do not apply to hunting groundhogs.

The language of the regulations appears to govern the caliber of the firearm. However, I do recall, that a WCO was asked if a 40 caliber bullet fired from a 45 caliber rifle using a sabot would be legal for deer. The answer as I recall was no the projectile also had to be 44 or larger. But such a requirement is not found in the regs.

Compare that to a recent answer concerning using the Judge (a 45 Colt revolver) when loaded with 410 shells. Despite the similar language requiring that handguns must be 23 caliber or under for small game, the Game commission replied that when loaded with 410 shells, it was a shotgun. So apparently, the Commission is looking past the express language of the regulation to the ammunition being fired out of the arm.

I have a German training conversion barrel that slides into an 8mm mauser to fire 22RF ammo. The language expressly requires that the firearm be 23 caliber or under. But for some uses, the commission looks to the ammunition.

Frankly, it would be nice if the rules stated what they meant and they meant what they say. Instead of bending the rules which ever way they want.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Frankly, it would be nice if the rules stated what they meant and they meant what they say. Instead of bending the rules which ever way they want.

The corollary to which is, "Why do it the easy way when you can do it the hard way!" :haha:

 

[Walks with fire]

I wish they would make a .45 roundball legal for deer and small game as well. After all it is PA. Better yet perhaps is make a .40 caliber legal for both.

 

[Grumpa]

I think their mindset is to write the regs so if you are hunting small game with a .44 cal then, "obviously", you are poaching deer. A .40 will drop a deer, and should be legal. An old friend, now departed, regularly used a .40 - he had built it, he liked it, and it worked. He never encountered a warden with an inclination to measure the bore.

Opening day of the first PA flintlock muzzle loading season,(I believe it was 1975 or '76) our group was approached by two wardens, who informed us that we were off the limits of the state park (early hunting was limited to state parks), then they said they didn't really care about that, but wanted to be sure that we had a good hunt! They examined the rifles, only out of a sincere interest in how they worked, and to admire the workmanship and design. The .40 passed muster. They were "old timers"; they should all be like that. :hatsoff:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The language of the regulations appears to govern the caliber of the firearm. However, I do recall, that a WCO was asked if a 40 caliber bullet fired from a 45 caliber rifle using a sabot would be legal for deer. The answer as I recall was no the projectile also had to be 44 or larger. But such a requirement is not found in the regs.

Compare that to a recent answer concerning using the Judge (a 45 Colt revolver) when loaded with 410 shells. Despite the similar language requiring that handguns must be 23 caliber or under for small game, the Game commission replied that when loaded with 410 shells, it was a shotgun. So apparently, the Commission is looking past the express language of the regulation to the ammunition being fired out of the arm.

Well the WCO is simply under-educated. The .44 magnum fires a .429 bullet. The .38 special fires a .357 bullet. The .36 caliber cap-n-ball revolver fires a .375 bullet. The .44 cap-n-ball revolver fires a .451 - .457 bullet. etc etc.

The problem with the Game Commission calling a revolver firing multi-ball rounds a "shotgun" is they neglect to observe that a shotgun that small is illegal to own or carry without a Class III permit, so they should've said "you can't hunt with it".

What happens with DNR regulations is that you get a change over of staff, which may be well versed in one area, and they change a law or add a law, but are not well enough educated to be able to check past laws and identify conflict or confusion... nor do they know how to rectify the situation when conflict or confusion arises.

We had a zone in Montgomery County Maryland that prohibited the use of "firearms" for hunting..., well muzzleloaders are "antique firearms" even when replicas, so they and bows were not covered by the regulations. Took the county council decades to figure out the problem....

LD

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The problem with the Game Commission calling a revolver firing multi-ball rounds a "shotgun" is they neglect to observe that a shotgun that small is illegal to own or carry without a Class III permit, so they should've said "you can't hunt with it".

Except that in PA, certain class three firearms are not prohibited for hunting. We do have a law prohibiting semi auto and automatic rifles and handguns. For instance, a class three sawed off shotgun can still be legal for hunting. Hunting with a silencer on a rifle is legal in PA. And then as to non-cartridge guns, all the black powder/muzzle loader exemptions apply. We can hunt deer with flint lock rifle that has been sawed off to a 14 inch barrel. I understand that is not the case in some other states.

 

[excess650]

Pa's regulations are a bit confusing. They do not list turkey as small game, but then do not specify caliber of rifles or MLers.

In years past the regulation for late flintlock deer season was "longrifles of 44cal or larger" and only allowed primitive sights. They never defined "longrifle"....the current wording is "44cal or larger long gun, single barrel, peep sight permitted", so THAT is more clear.

Regardless, I'm carrying my .45 flintlock for turkey this weekend.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Except that in PA, certain class three firearms are not prohibited for hunting.

That may be fine, but it conflicts with Federal law defining that a "shotgun" with less than an 18" barrel or an overall length of under 26" cannot be possessed by a person who does not have a class III permit. :shocked2: Which again illustrates the point, one law that defines an item is contradicting another law that would, in most cases, prohibit the possession that item. :shocked2:

Hunting with a silencer on a rifle is legal in PA.

Not by a person who does not hold a class III permit.

LD

 

[zimmerstutzen]

It doesn't conflict with federal law at all, some such arms are legal for hunting. It is up to the hunter to comply with any other jurisdictional regulations such as whether the Class three license is required.

Apparently however, the Judge revolver does not require a class three permit to hunt with it when loaded with 410 shot shells.

A silencer is legal for hunting in Pa. If the hunter does not have the permit, he is still hunting legally so far as PA's game laws are concerned. The lack of a permit is left for the police and feds to address. But it is not a game law violation.

 

[bubba15301]

Pa's regulations are a bit confusing. They do not list turkey as small game, but then do not specify caliber of rifles or MLers.

In years past the regulation for late flintlock deer season was "longrifles of 44cal or larger" and only allowed primitive sights. They never defined "longrifle"....the current wording is "44cal or larger long gun, single barrel, peep sight permitted", so THAT is more clear.

Regardless, I'm carrying my .45 flintlock for turkey this weekend.

turkey in Pa are considered big game separate regs from small game .you can use any caliber rifle for turkey. rimfire,centerfire or muzzleloader

 

[Grumpa]

And any kind of muzzleloader.

 

[Swisor]

Hi everyone new to the form. To hunt with any shotgun in Pa it must not be able to hold more then three shells (plugged). That is why a TC Contender 45/410 is legal and the Judge 45/410 hand gun is not. The rifling in the short barrels is what makes the the 45/410 legal to hunt with 410 shells.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Do you have a citation for your assertion because wco's have said the judge is legal as a shotgun when loaded with shot.
the three shell limit applies to one in the chamber and two in a magazine or clip, the judge has neither clip or magazine. It has chambers. Carefully read the regulation, NOT the comic book.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

As you can see, the plugged shotgun three shell limit does not apply to the Judge

Sec. 2308. Unlawful devices and methods.
(a) General rule.--Except as otherwise provided in this title, it is unlawful for any person to hunt or aid, abet, assist or conspire to hunt any game or wildlife through the use of:

(4) A semiautomatic shotgun or magazine shotgun for hunting or taking small game, furbearers, turkey or unprotected birds unless the shotgun is plugged to a two-shell capacity in the magazine.

 

[Billnpatti]

That is not a question well suited for accurate answers on the forum. You will get many opinions and it is possible that you may get correct answer. The problem is that the only answer that counts is the one from the state of PA. In the final analysis, it doesn't matter what anyone on this forum says, what matters is what the state of PA says. You need to contact the department in PA that is in control of game regulation enforcement. Then, since it seems so ambiguous, try to get it in writing just in case you happen to run across a game warden that has his own ideas about what the law says. If that happens, just whip out your written answer from the state and show it to him. It may or may not change his mind but it will have a strong effect in court if he insists on giving you a ticket anyway. Game laws have BIG teeth and you sure don't want to have to pay one of those fines if you don't have to. Get your answer from the state and act accordingly. :thumbsup:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Sage advice. The PA Game Commission frequently gives advice, even publishes advice, that is contrary to their own regulations.

For instance, about nine years ago, The Commission outlawed all centerfire ammunition for small game, and two months later, in THEIR magazine, ran an article about the perfect centerfire squirrel gun. Two years later, they approved centerfire again with the 23 caliber and under restriction for both rifles and handguns, but then saida year ago, the Judge handgun, a 45 caliber, was legal for hunting small game with 410 shells. IE they went contrary to their own limitation that handguns had to be under 23 caliber.

Yet when a person asked about using a 62 caliber smooth bore flint pistol with shot for small game, the answer was no, muzzle loading handguns must be 40 caliber and under.

Consistency in their advice concerning legal firearms is lacking.

There years ago, the personnel at the Game Commission issued three distinct conflicting emails concerning the legality of cap and ball revolvers for hunting. All within ten days.

 

[bubba15301]

cap and ball revolvers are legal in the regular firearms season. info came from the director of the bureau of wildlife protection

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I know there was a recent announcement that they are legal because they are "close" to centerfire.

They are not "close", but ARE center fire according to UMC, Remington, Winchester, American Flask & Cap, Elm City, Goldmark and Hicks. Do I believe the firearms opinion of a single state bureaucrat or of the several companies that designed and sold the guns and ammo. This is the same person that a few years ago, also said cap and ball revolvers were muzzle loaders and then a week later said they were not. If he keeps guessing, eventually he might get it right.