can i use goex 4f in

[roundball]

Joel,

I think that you are right about some people simply accepting the old platitudes regarding powder levels while others will others test rules and limits. But then, this is the nature of dealing with people. Some accept and others test.

I have used 4f to get dry balls out and this has worked well. I can also see where using light 4f loads in a small bore might give good results, but I would want more information before making a pracice of it. I also would likely prefer to control the air space if using a patent breech.

I sure hope that we can stay civil with this discussion since we are conveying data and opinions rather than emotion.

I hope that we are all friends here.

CS

I agree CS...as I mentioned, I know from personal experience that light charges of Elephant 4F worked perfectly in four different caliber TC Hawken Flint barrels with PRBs...not just some sort of "single test shot from a rifle tied to a tire" or something, I mean 50 shot range sessions like I normally shoot on the weekends...4 such range sessions to be exact, and they're powder puff charges by the way.

Communication problems only come up when someone who's always believed in only one way of doing something takes issue with it being done differently...and...insists that scientific tests be performed, etc.

Taking issue is easy...anybody can sit back and snipe...the real worthwhile contribution would be when these people go run the very scientific tests they're insisting on...as it is, they haven't even run the range tests that I have.

 

[Mad Monk]

Joel,

I really hesitate to get into these things.
I have never been in the position of having only 4F to work with.

The man in Tasmania mentions a Traditions 50 caliber rifle. I have no idea how it is breeched. He mentions 30 to 65 grns of powder (4F0 for this rifle.

In the Investarms and T/C barrels the patent breech plug has a sub-bore size powder chamber. The powder chamber holds about 40 grains of powder. If all you do is fill the powder chamber you get lower than expected pressures and velocities because of the difference in size between the powder chamber and the bore diameter. You see this in old cannons that used powder chambers with larger bores.
Once you start using more powder that fills the chamber and the bore you see pressures and velocities go up.
I ran into this testing single powders through a wide range of charge volumes. I at first wondered why the velocity graphs had this point at the 40 grn chg volume where suddenly the velocities jumped up.

I know shooters who have spent a lot of time trying to bulge or burst ml barrels by various means. Short-starting projectiles. Shooting with badly fouled bores, etc. Some claim that have no been able to as much ring a bore let alone bulge or burst one. Short of throwing smokeless in one. Yet hand a new rifle to a new shooter and there is a chance that they will hand it back to you 5 or 10 shots later with a walnut in the bore or the barrel in pieces.

If you go back and read the experiments made by Count Rumford in the late 1700's you see him using a short, heavy wrought iron barrel with a snug fitting plunger trying to measure the force produced by the firing of black powder. Resting on top of the plunger was a bronze 32-pounder cannon barrel. The firing of the powder in the heavy cylinder throwing the barrel up in slides.
He was doing fine until he dropped the powder charge to 14 grains weight. His heavy wrought iron cylinder was torn to pieces. With only 14 grains of powder!!

I also have fired balls out of rifles where I forgot the main charge and had to dribble a few grains of 4F into the vent. Never really felt comfortable doing it.

I never had any desire to play with light charges of 4F in the rifles because of the amount of graphite found in 4F. Remember that the graphite is a surface coating on the powder grains and 4F has a whole lot of surface for its weight. really cruds up a barrel even with light charges.
When you look at the really fine dust in a can of 4F most of that fine dust is nothing more than graphite. Which does not burn when the powder does.

From the legal standpoint it is akin to suicide to even suggest the use of 4F as a main charge in any gun.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I have used a sma;; amount of 4f as a sort of 'kicker' charge under the 3f in my ROA and '58 Rem. I used a 25 acp caseful at first, then went on up to a 32 acp caseful. I notice a little more recoil, don't have a chrono so no velocity testing. Haven't worked up the nerve to try a full charge of 4f yet, but someone posted that they had read it being done.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Yeah,m and I met a man who bragged about blowing up the cylinders on two Super Blackhawks, and three blackhawks because he used Bullseye instead of 2400 powder!, too. It is always someone heard that someone did this, etc. Mad Monk tests powders for Goex. His advice is sound, and should be relied upon. As much as I like ROA revolvers, I would never use 4Fg powder in them, for anything. The FFFg does not need any " kicker " to make it burn. That .32 acp holds about 5 grains of powder, so you are not creating a serious situation, but you can blow up that cylinder just like the idiot I had to listen to for a few minutes so many years ago. He said this in front of about 10 men, all of whom stayed quiet and listened to his brag, but I also noticed that every time they shifted their weight from one foot to another, they took a half step back from him. By the time he finished, the ring around him was about 10 feet across!, and getting larger by the second. I think they call that " common sense ".

 

[Darkhorse]

My posts about Roundball's test were not meant to inflame but to inform. He has been posting references to his 4F tests as a main charge and has declared 4F safe as a main charge. However he has not posted the data he used to ascertain his results.
I simply challenged him to do so. It is really too bad if he took it as a sign of disrespect or sniping. But if one makes these claims then one must expect challenges.
In the scientific community when one makes claims like these then all facets of the tests are published. The idea being to see if certain results can be repeated. Or for others with perhaps some background in research to study the data and perhaps find something not taken into account.
So far, no data of any use has been forthcoming. I will agree that he managed to get a flintlock to fire with 4F. Perhaps that was his only criteria. If so, he was successful. But who would have ever doubted that outcome.
My question has to do with safety and pressure. That data has not been revealed.
From the reply posted it seems that a challenge to his test was a challenge to him as a person or perhaps his opinion of himself as the Thompson Center Guru.
One problem with Forums on the internet is that people with "NO" experience read this stuff and take all they read as fact. Now you factor in someone with 8,000 or so posts and its easy to see a newbie dumping in 120 grains of 4FG because he read it was "Safe" because Mr. Roundball completely tested it.
I stil consider this irresponsible.
I asked for facts and data.
I recieved a childish reply instead.
The challenge and request still stands.

 

[Smokey in Oz]

I think we should read tippygurus' original post carefully before giving advice, I'll quote a small but significant part.....
" i am new to the blk pwdr scene "
I dont doubt that some people have and/or do use 4f on occasion. From what I've read those people have some experience in BP. I've also read others posts who have obvious BP experience who strongly suggest not using 4f. Personally I'd err on the side of caution. :hmm:
Tippyguru, if you decide to use 4f please let me know beforehand. I want to be on the other side of the range before you shoot, not beside you. If you want to borrow some 3f in the meantime, feel free!
Smokey. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

I saw this and thought it was a fitting parallel:

"People who don't understand electricity are afraid of it and should never perform electrical type work. Electrical work should only be performed by those who understand electricity, are not afraid of it, and know what they're doing".