Can the need to swab be fixed?

[renegadehunter]

Sorry but I'm borderline OCD (it really should be CDO so that it's in order!...lol) and also just plain like to try to build a better mousetrap all the time, probably why I like this black powder thing so much, lots of variables to mess around with.
Background:
TC Renegade .54 cal
.530 ball, .015 store bought cotton patch, damp with Hoppes BP solvent (can't wring any out of it), 75 grains of 2f Scheutzen.
Just sitting here wishing I was out shooting and started to wonder about having to swab.
When using the above I can load and shoot many times without it getting too hard to load, but when at club shoots I noticed that I would hit the first 3 or so targets and then I was lucky to hit another one. Steel targets without any way to really see where the shots were going. Stupid me, but when developing the load I was swabbing every shot just for the ease of loading and getting nice groups. Then I would go to a club shoot and try to shoot continuously without swabbing. I don't mind swabbing, but the folks I shoot with don't need to and would be waiting on me if I took the extra time so I just didn't. I finally went to the range and tried to shoot groups at 25 yards without swabbing and found that the first two shots were in the bull, then the third shot was about 6" left of that, the fourth shot barely nicked the left edge of the box the target was stapled to, and the next two shots I took didn't hit the whole target/box (so roughly 14" left of the bull to miss the whole thing). All shots from sandbags. I then ran a barely damp swab down the barrel, flipped it over and did it again, and then took another shot. It was right back in the bull. Swabbed again just once down and back to see if that was enough for fouling consistency and the next shot was also in the bull. The patches I use are labeled as .015", when squeezed very firmly in calipers they consistently average .012". So finally my question:
Has anyone ever experienced this and was able to go to a little tighter patch and get away with not swabbing? I read about folks not needing to swab all the time and was just curious. My current patches load what I'd call medium on a fouled bore, pretty firm pressure is required to seat them. I've recently bought some CVA pillow ticking patches that say they are .015" that actually measure about .018" uncompressed and show right at the stated thickness when squeezed in the calipers, but I haven't had the time to try them yet. I'm wondering if slightly tighter will result in a more consistent bore from shot to shot.
I really don't mind having to swab, just curious if anyone has ever "fixed" the need to swab and been able to maintain decent groups. Our club shots at steel targets really only require minute-of-deer accuracy to make most of them clang. The very first shot that is a tie-breaker paper target is the only one that really needs to be a super accurate shot, which I have no issue with since it is the first shot of the day (when I do my part anyway lol).

 

[Idaholewis]

Others will know much more about Patched Round Ball than myself, For consistency shot after shot, Swabbing is the Way to go. Learn to Swab Faster

 

[FishDFly]

Others will know much more about Patched Round Ball than myself, For consistency shot after shot, Swabbing is the Way to go. Learn to Swab Faster

This is one of the most asked topics here.

If you go to line shoots, winners clean between shots.

Go to a local club, state or national shoot where championships are on the line, the winners who are on the board are cleaning between shots. Must be a reason they make the board.

Cleaning between shots keeps a person busy, they are busy cleaning and not talking, thus they are not dry balling due to a lack of concentration.

Those who do not clean between shots after a while have trouble seating the ball, especially in very low humidity areas.

Why not?

 

[Grimord]

You could try a paste type lube like Mink Oil. I have found that I only have to swab the bore after about 3 shots if I want to maintain the same degree of accuracy. I can go as much as 10 shots, but the last few are getting hard to seat the ball.

 

[CTShooter]

I do not swab between shots and have no issues seating the ball, my method works for me and I don't want to start a war, please contact me privately if your interested.

 

[Oregononeshot]

I swab between shots with a spit patch. If I had to guess I'd say it takes me 10-15 seconds to swab. I can't imagine you don't have time for that. I want the barrel to be as close to the same as possible every shot, so you get the same results, hence the quick swab. If you haven't, look into getting Dutchs work. It goes over in detail the importance of swabbing between each shot. It seems your experiments with swabbing show how important it is to accuracy.

 

[30coupe]

You could give this a try. I'm not sure how much it helped Mike's accuracy, but it certainly made loading easier.



I use the same lube as you. My .50 cal. TC Hawken seems to be getting less picky about that now that I've run a few more ball through it, so I'm wondering if I should give Mikes method a try with that as well. At first the third shot would kind of start to pull away from the group, and the fourth would be a bugger to load. Granted that was with a different lube. I don't go to shoots; I just hunt, so I really don't need to do more than three shots without swabbing. If I do my part the Hawken does just fine.

I tried Dutch's method, but found that dry lubed patches make swabbing between shots pretty much a necessity. That would be fine if I was just shooting targets, but if I need to make a follow-up shot while hunting, I'm not going to swab. Someone here suggested the Hoppe's lube, so I tried it and it works for me. If I were competing, I'd probably go back to Dutch's method, but for hunting the Hoppe's works just fine for me.

With my squirrel rifle (.32 cal. Pedersoli Frontier) I can go about 5 shots before the last couple inches of ramrod become a chore to complete. A swab with a Hoppe's soaked patch followed by a dry patch or two usually does the trick. I'm really quite pleased with the Frontier. I was expecting the small caliber to foul quickly, but that has not been the case. Pedersoli obviously does a great job of lapping the bores of their rifles.

Good luck with your quest. Let us know how you solve this issue.

 

[Griz44Mag]

. Learn to Swab Faster

WELL SAID!

Consistency is the name of the game for strings. If you don't swab, consistency is very hard to maintain because the barrel is constantly changing sizes....

 

[Carbon 6]

Yes, there are workarounds. the most I ever went was 100 balls, probably could have went more but I only had 1 box of balls with me.

I enjoy swabbing these days. It allows me to be more in tune with my rifle. It slows things down and makes them more enjoyable, It also maintains a minimal amount of fouling buildup in the barrel, this is a real treat when the shooting or hunting is all done and it's time to clean. Makes cleaning a real joy.

 

[necchi]

, just curious if anyone has ever "fixed" the need to swab and been able to maintain decent groups.

Nope.
The phrase "decent groups" is relative.
Wanna clang gong's?,, shoot all day.
Wanna Deer hunt?,, just shoot once.
Wanna hunt the elusive X for high score? Then it's the guy that maintains a consistent bore condition, that will out shoot the guy that doesn't.
(every day)

 

[Sinner]

Lee R.E.A.L. conicals... No need to swab!

 

[Stony Broke]

I shoot a match once a month and normally take home a few ribbons. Last month I shot in 4 legs of the match...3 rifle and 1 pistol...and walked away with 4 blue ribbons. Everyone that shoots black powder seems to have a different way of doing things and gets pretty set in his ways. I shoot the entire matches without swabbing at all using the method I was broken in with about 40 yrs. ago. I never have a problem with loading the prb and it always goes down the barrel with the same amount of resistance...which is about medium I'd say.
I started many years ago using a mix of Windex and Murphy's oil soap in a small spray bottle. I give the patch a couple squirts and load up. The patch is pretty damp and pushes a lot of the fouling back down the barrel each time and sort of just cleans the barrel as it goes. I've shot probably 100 shots through a rifle this way and never had to clean it or seen and difference in the point of impact. I use the same mixture to clean the firearms afterward and it just works good for me.
I've experimented with lots of stuff over the years including the mink oil, etc...and never have the same results.
Ymmv...but I will continue with my old method and hopefully win high aggregate for the club again this year.

 

[smo]

Here’s what I’ve started using for patch lube as well as for cleaning.
I pre cut my patches and place them in a cap tin.
I use three sprays in the tin full of patching material, one in the bottom of the tin, one spray in the center of the stack of patches , then one spray on the top of the stack.

Close the tin and let the fluid absorb into the patches.

Patches will be damp but not wet, the One Shot keeps the fouling soft and loading is a breeze.
The most shots I’ve fired in a range session is 35 , without swabbing.

I could have continued without any issues other than darkness.

I’ve had guns do simalar things too what you are describing , usually 1&48” twist barrels with heavier charges.

If you haven’t tried fffg , I would give it a go as well, it definitely burns cleaner than ffg. Thus less need to swab.

When I did expierience flyers like your describing , lower powder charges seemed to be less intrusive. 65-70 fffg.

Just a thought , I worked for me.

 

[BrownBear]

Sounds like all you've heard from who shoot a lot are range shooters. In our part of the world small game shooting, whether ptarmigan (limit 20 per day, season Aug 1 through Apr 1) or snowshoe hare (no bag limit and no closed season), can translate into a whole lot of shooting in a day. A winter day. Swab all you want or need, but I won't be waiting around for you while you do it. I've got lots of miles to cover and lots of shooting to do.

No clue whether I'm getting range accuracy, cuzz I really don't care. I'm getting the fine accuracy I need for what I'm doing. Used to have to swab lots just to be able to load, especially small bores with their skinny rods.

Now I don't. For me it boiled down to experimenting with lubes and finding the right one that leaves the fouling soft. Several I concocted using deer tallow and olive oil did so but were sensitive to ambient temp. For most of those guns TOW's mink tallow was better. Those that didn't respond to treatment have done well with patches prelubed with olive oil.

Not being critical of anyone who swabs. Keep it up and have fun. I'm having fun too, and that's all we can ask of each other.

 

[Stony Broke]

Sounds like all you've heard from who shoot a lot are range shooters. In our part of the world small game shooting, whether ptarmigan (limit 20 per day, season Aug 1 through Apr 1) or snowshoe hare (no bag limit and no closed season), can translate into a whole lot of shooting in a day. A winter day. Swab all you want or need, but I won't be waiting around for you while you do it. I've got lots of miles to cover and lots of shooting to do.

No clue whether I'm getting range accuracy, cuzz I really don't care. I'm getting the fine accuracy I need for what I'm doing. Used to have to swab lots just to be able to load, especially small bores with their skinny rods.

Now I don't. For me it boiled down to experimenting with lubes and finding the right one that leaves the fouling soft. Several I concocted using deer tallow and olive oil did so but were sensitive to ambient temp. For most of those guns TOW's mink tallow was better. Those that didn't respond to treatment have done well with patches prelubed with olive oil.

Not being critical of anyone who swabs. Keep it up and have fun. I'm having fun too, and that's all we can ask of each other.

Well said....to each his own. It's whatever works for you and most of us seem to have our own methods.

 

[Dr5x]

When you don't wipe between shots you will be shooting from a different sized barrel with each shot the condition will get worse/
Apparently you ball patch is about right but the shot after shot decrease in barrel size is what is throwing you off.
I think if you wiped after every two shots at your club shoots you wouldn't annoy the others too much but could well improve your scores. That residue bakes on to your bore till it's like bakelite and as far as the ball patch combination is concerned the barrel has gotten smaller.

Your story makes my point.
If you have some damp wiping patches at hand, It doesn't take a whole lot of time to zip a quick wipe in there.

DutchSchoultz

Sorry but I'm borderline OCD (it really should be CDO so that it's in order!...lol) and also just plain like to try to build a better mousetrap all the time, probably why I like this black powder thing so much, lots of variables to mess around with.
Background:
TC Renegade .54 cal
.530 ball, .015 store bought cotton patch, damp with Hoppes BP solvent (can't wring any out of it), 75 grains of 2f Scheutzen.
Just sitting here wishing I was out shooting and started to wonder about having to swab.
When using the above I can load and shoot many times without it getting too hard to load, but when at club shoots I noticed that I would hit the first 3 or so targets and then I was lucky to hit another one. Steel targets without any way to really see where the shots were going. Stupid me, but when developing the load I was swabbing every shot just for the ease of loading and getting nice groups. Then I would go to a club shoot and try to shoot continuously without swabbing. I don't mind swabbing, but the folks I shoot with don't need to and would be waiting on me if I took the extra time so I just didn't. I finally went to the range and tried to shoot groups at 25 yards without swabbing and found that the first two shots were in the bull, then the third shot was about 6" left of that, the fourth shot barely nicked the left edge of the box the target was stapled to, and the next two shots I took didn't hit the whole target/box (so roughly 14" left of the bull to miss the whole thing). All shots from sandbags. I then ran a barely damp swab down the barrel, flipped it over and did it again, and then took another shot. It was right back in the bull. Swabbed again just once down and back to see if that was enough for fouling consistency and the next shot was also in the bull. The patches I use are labeled as .015", when squeezed very firmly in calipers they consistently average .012". So finally my question:
Has anyone ever experienced this and was able to go to a little tighter patch and get away with not swabbing? I read about folks not needing to swab all the time and was just curious. My current patches load what I'd call medium on a fouled bore, pretty firm pressure is required to seat them. I've recently bought some CVA pillow ticking patches that say they are .015" that actually measure about .018" uncompressed and show right at the stated thickness when squeezed in the calipers, but I haven't had the time to try them yet. I'm wondering if slightly tighter will result in a more consistent bore from shot to shot.
I really don't mind having to swab, just curious if anyone has ever "fixed" the need to swab and been able to maintain decent groups. Our club shots at steel targets really only require minute-of-deer accuracy to make most of them clang. The very first shot that is a tie-breaker paper target is the only one that really needs to be a super accurate shot, which I have no issue with since it is the first shot of the day (when I do my part anyway lol).

 

[renegadehunter]

Thanks for all the replies. A lot of lube suggestions, which we all know there are more types of those than can be counted. I plan on playing around with different lubes as a part of this experiment. I actually made up some of the pillow ticking patches with some different lubes just the other day so they can be tested, mink oil, a 5:1 denatured alcohol & castor oil (tried at 7:1 a while back and it was way too dry), Birchwood/Casey #77, Ballistol, and just for kicks a pure coconut lard that we had in the cupboard. It seems there are always a bunch of different lube suggestions when talking about accuracy when not swabbing, but there are so many folks using different lubes and having success that I still think patch/ball diameter has to be a big part of it. I will see when I try the slightly tighter combo.

"Learn to swab faster" isn't really helpful with a question of how to get accuracy without swabbing. I've said that I'm now swabbing and I really don't mind since I'm getting accuracy, but my two partners definitely have to wait longer. It takes time to open a container, get out a swab, position and run it down and up the bore, and then put it into another container (not going to litter the private property we are graciously allowed to use) and then start loading. I also think a good patch/ball combo should be fully capable of maintaining consistent fouling in the bore. It was suggested by a member on here that I could load the patch and ball with a cleaning jag on the rod with a swab all at once and see how that works, which is something I'll definitely try the next time I'm out. If I find that I just simply can't at least get "minute of deer" accuracy without swabbing, then I'm hoping the above works which will definitely be a "learn to swab faster" useful trick. If I'm ever in a shoot where it is a pure accuracy shooting x-rings, then you can bet I'll be swabbing, but again...I'm not after range accuracy, just a rough "minute of deer" accuracy. Right now my shots are taking off left by over 14" if not swabbing, and this was only at 25 yards.

Can't use conicals at a club shoot on steel targets...they tend to put holes in them!

 

[renegadehunter]

Dutch, a question for you since you always swabbed. And for the folks that do always swab for that matter.
What is your experience with blocking the flame channel? I seem to always experience this after several shots when swabbing. Do you add the powder charge first, or not swab clear to the bottom?

 

[Carbon 6]

but my two partners definitely have to wait longer

Are they shooting muzzleloaders too? Makes me wonder what they are doing that you aren't

I'm not after range accuracy, just a rough "minute of deer" accuracy. Right now my shots are taking off left by over 14" if not swabbing, and this was only at 25 yards.

Off by 14" at 25 yards?
Sounds like swabbing isn't your problem, I can group smaller than that with a bare ball.

 

[renegadehunter]

Off by 14" at 25 yards?
Sounds like swabbing isn't your problem, I can group smaller than that with a bare ball.

I know, it's crazy to me that I can get 2" groups if I do my part with this setup at 50 yards but it takes off to the left so bad when not swabbing. And this was off of sandbags. This is also why I want to try a bit thicker patch.

My partners are using Birchwood/Casey #77 patches that are dripping when they pull them out of the container. One of them generally hits around 7 to 8 of the ten steel targets, but the other one only hits about 4 to 5 of them. The latter I don't think has spent any real range time in seeing what his setup really does on paper.