Can the need to swab be fixed?

[Carbon 6]

My partners are using Birchwood/Casey #77 patches that are dripping when they pull them out of the container. One of them generally hits around 7 to 8 of the ten steel targets, but the other one only hits about 4 to 5 of them. The latter I don't think has spent any real range time in seeing what his setup really does on paper.

Sounds like you all could benefit from slowing down and swabbing between shots.

Not swabbing shouldn't make your shots consistently hit to the left. If the gun shoots center on the bench but shoots left offhand, you have a LOP or shouldering problem.

 

[renegadehunter]

All shots were taken from the bench. Since I was missing the entire box with the target stapled to it I suppose it could've been spraying them randomly, I just assumed it was shooting them all left since the third shot was left of the bull by about 3" and then the fourth shot was barely on the very left edge of the box which was about 12" left. They were also all at the same elevation. Could've been coincidence.

 

[necchi]

a pure coconut lard

Coconut Lard?

 

[azmntman]

Dutch, a question for you since you always swabbed. And for the folks that do always swab for that matter.
What is your experience with blocking the flame channel? I seem to always experience this after several shots when swabbing. Do you add the powder charge first, or not swab clear to the bottom?

Trick is getting your patch as damp as possible (NOT wet) w/o ANY dripping and also to use a jag thats undersized enough NOT TO PUSH ANYTHING down when you run to the breech. All your barrel swabbing (I call it swiping) is done pulling the patch back out, (the patch is damp and the sides will clean on the way out). Too damp and water will get in the breech, too tight a jag and yer pushing fouling into the breech before you pull it out.

 

[Black Hand]

Sorry but I'm borderline OCD (it really should be CDO so that it's in order!...lol) and also just plain like to try to build a better mousetrap all the time, probably why I like this black powder thing so much, lots of variables to mess around with.
Background:
TC Renegade .54 cal
.530 ball, .015 store bought cotton patch, damp with Hoppes BP solvent (can't wring any out of it), 75 grains of 2f Scheutzen.
Just sitting here wishing I was out shooting and started to wonder about having to swab.
When using the above I can load and shoot many times without it getting too hard to load, but when at club shoots I noticed that I would hit the first 3 or so targets and then I was lucky to hit another one. Steel targets without any way to really see where the shots were going. Stupid me, but when developing the load I was swabbing every shot just for the ease of loading and getting nice groups. Then I would go to a club shoot and try to shoot continuously without swabbing. I don't mind swabbing, but the folks I shoot with don't need to and would be waiting on me if I took the extra time so I just didn't. I finally went to the range and tried to shoot groups at 25 yards without swabbing and found that the first two shots were in the bull, then the third shot was about 6" left of that, the fourth shot barely nicked the left edge of the box the target was stapled to, and the next two shots I took didn't hit the whole target/box (so roughly 14" left of the bull to miss the whole thing). All shots from sandbags. I then ran a barely damp swab down the barrel, flipped it over and did it again, and then took another shot. It was right back in the bull. Swabbed again just once down and back to see if that was enough for fouling consistency and the next shot was also in the bull. The patches I use are labeled as .015", when squeezed very firmly in calipers they consistently average .012". So finally my question:
Has anyone ever experienced this and was able to go to a little tighter patch and get away with not swabbing? I read about folks not needing to swab all the time and was just curious. My current patches load what I'd call medium on a fouled bore, pretty firm pressure is required to seat them. I've recently bought some CVA pillow ticking patches that say they are .015" that actually measure about .018" uncompressed and show right at the stated thickness when squeezed in the calipers, but I haven't had the time to try them yet. I'm wondering if slightly tighter will result in a more consistent bore from shot to shot.
I really don't mind having to swab, just curious if anyone has ever "fixed" the need to swab and been able to maintain decent groups. Our club shots at steel targets really only require minute-of-deer accuracy to make most of them clang. The very first shot that is a tie-breaker paper target is the only one that really needs to be a super accurate shot, which I have no issue with since it is the first shot of the day (when I do my part anyway lol).

I can shoot 20 or more times and I do not swab between shots. I use pillow ticking (~0.015) lubed with Bear grease and a .600 ball in a 62 caliber barrel. Even when things do get a little sticky, a wet patch and I'm ready to shoot again.

 

[brayhaven]

Years ago a shooting buddy and I were having trouble 30-40 shots into a match with hangfires and misfires. I pulled a breech plug just to see what was going on. There was a thick layer of concrete hard fouling built up that came-up close to the flash hole. Looking at the cause, it was obvious that the swabbing was pushing the crud down behind the load and then the heat and pressure were making it hard and accumulating. Quit swabbing and never had that problem again. Even with the small bores 32 & 36. I use a mixture of 9 parts 99% isopropyl to 1 part castor oil. Did a lot of bench testing for accuracy and velocity consistency and it was even better than when swabbing. I built a test barrel for a contender carbine and scoped it for precision. 40 cal GM blank. That I tested along with our match guns.
Now I shoot all day, daylight til dark and the last load goes down just like the second one. Cleaning looks like you put one round through the bore.
What happens is the patch lubed & ball (.020 ticking), cleans the fouling from the previous shot and places it on top of the powder, so it goes down range with each shot. Everyone (including my wife) I’ve gotten to try this has loved it. I also shoot 2 targets a relay and have time left

 

[renegadehunter]

Coconut Lard?

Lol, good catch. Pure coconut that comes in a tub with no sodium or supposedly any additives and is a bit harder than Crisco. Melted some and dipped the patches.

 

[renegadehunter]

I can shoot 20 or more times and I do not swab between shots. I use pillow ticking (~0.015) lubed with Bear grease and a .600 ball in a 62 caliber barrel. Even when things do get a little sticky, a wet patch and I'm ready to shoot again.

Now that's the kind of thing I was hoping to hear. I assume your accuracy is good or you wouldn't be doing it that way.
I find it interesting that the only two lubes I've heard about from members so far that can shoot multiple times without swabbing and maintain accuracy is the kind of lube that the mountain men had available to them. The other lube I was told about is olive oil, which I've read is "sweet oil".
Unfortunately I'm not a high success bear hunter and don't have any fat to render. The last one I shot was before I became interested in trying to render it for a patch lube, but I've been wanting some for about a year now. I bear hunt every spring, perhaps I'll be successful this year. I also plan to hit up the local wild game processor and see if they'll be willing to be a source for it.

 

[Black Hand]

Now that's the kind of thing I was hoping to hear. I assume your accuracy is good or you wouldn't be doing it that way.
I find it interesting that the only two lubes I've heard about from members so far that can shoot multiple times without swabbing and maintain accuracy is the kind of lube that the mountain men had available to them. The other lube I was told about is olive oil, which I've read is "sweet oil".
Unfortunately I'm not a high success bear hunter and don't have any fat to render. The last one I shot was before I became interested in trying to render it for a patch lube, but I've been wanting some for about a year now. I bear hunt every spring, perhaps I'll be successful this year. I also plan to hit up the local wild game processor and see if they'll be willing to be a source for it.

You could try lard from the grocery store - It would have been something available in the period. Admittedly, lard is less oily than Bear grease (which tends to separate normally into grease & oil), but should do the job.

 

[renegadehunter]

Trick is getting your patch as damp as possible (NOT wet) w/o ANY dripping and also to use a jag thats undersized enough NOT TO PUSH ANYTHING down when you run to the breech. All your barrel swabbing (I call it swiping) is done pulling the patch back out, (the patch is damp and the sides will clean on the way out). Too damp and water will get in the breech, too tight a jag and yer pushing fouling into the breech before you pull it out.

I've read this a few times. I don't have anything to turn the jag down with, but have started using a little bit smaller cleaning patch. I don't block the flame channel near as frequently now, but it does still happen on occasion. How much smaller of a jag do you use? If I found a .52 cal jag do you think that would work?

 

[renegadehunter]

You could try lard from the grocery store - It would have been something available in the period. Admittedly, lard is less oily than Bear grease (which tends to separate normally into grease & oil), but should do the job.

How do you normally lube your patches? Do you rub them on the lard, dip them in the oil that separates, or either/or depending on your supply of each? I'm going to guess the lard is your patch lube and you save the oil for coating the barrel for storage? Thanks

 

[CTShooter]

I have a lathe if you want something turned down

 

[renegadehunter]

Thanks CT, I appreciate the offer. I'll contact you if something can't be purchased.

 

[Greenjoytj]

Brayhaven - I see how your system could work. A tight fitting PRB is key to your system. I believe most muzzle loader shooters are not using a truly (tested) tight fitting PRB. One that shows the patch weave marks deeply embossed all the way around the ball, not just on the lands.

How wet it your patch?

A 9:1 mix of 99% alcohol to caster oil. I think/hope the alcohol lasts on the patch till the ball is seated, in a warm barrel heated by firing or the sun the alcohol is going to evaporate off very very fast leaving just the castor oil smeared in the bore and on the patch. Luckily castor oil is the slipperyest oil known.

It seem that the goal of muzzleloading is to keep the powder fouling soft enough to make raming down the next shots PRB doable for many repeated firings. With that goal in mind I don’t see forum posts mentioning shooter observing a “lube star” present on their rifles muzzle - like one sees on his BP cartridge firearm.
I do see many posts that tell how hard the powder fouling gets and the difficulty in trying to push a PRB through it.
I wonder if shooters are just not using enough lube, like a lube cookie between powder and PRB a large glob of something soft and gooey like SPG or homemade Emmerts lube.

I shoot A Lyman GPR 54 cal flintlock 32” barrel with 85 grs GOEX 2fg PRB plus a 58 cal felt wad that’s been soaked in melted mink oil.
The 32” x .54 cal rifled bore presents a lot of surface area to coat with fouling. Lucky most of it stays in the lower half of the barrel but still that’s a big surface area to wet down and I think it asking too much of a small quantity of lube to soften all that fouling.

 

[Black Hand]

How do you normally lube your patches? Do you rub them on the lard, dip them in the oil that separates, or either/or depending on your supply of each? I'm going to guess the lard is your patch lube and you save the oil for coating the barrel for storage? Thanks

I've collected the oil from rendered Bear fat and use it to lubricate my lock/grease the barrel after cleaning, while the grease is used to lube patches (and to lube the barrel after cleaning when in the field).

To lube my patches, I put 30-50 pre-cut patches in a custom-made foil cup, add Bear grease on top/in between and place it all into a warm toaster oven to melt the grease and fully impregnate the patches (I will add more grease if the patching still looks a little dry). When the patches are fully lubed, I give the patches a gentle squeeze to remove some of the excess and place them in my tin.

As to accuracy, I am a hunter and the gun brings home meat - that is my metric for success. If I do MY part, the gun does its part...

 

[jmdavis]

Don't do anything faster. Your time is your time and NO ONE cares how fast you miss. I learned this shooting steel matches with 4 people on the line shooting at a single target. Whether you swab or not is another matter entirely. But here's another question. What powder are you using?

I have friends who regularly win woodswalks who don't swab the barrel. But when they are practicing on paper they don't swab either. So they know where the ball will go. Cutting cards is a different matter, but I don't know if they swab the barrel for that or not.

 

[Carbon 6]

The other lube I was told about is olive oil, which I've read is "sweet oil".

Olive oil has become synonymous with the term "Sweet oil " but, originally sweet oil referred to any non-drying oil that was liquid at room temp. Sweet oil could have easily referred to rapeseed or other oil. Olive oil being the "sweetest" (tasting) of the sweet oils has dominated that title over the centuries.

 

[azmntman]

Put a jag in a drill and use emery cloth or sand paper or a file. Take a little off at a time till its working good for you!

 

[Rifleman1776]

Dutch, a question for you since you always swabbed. And for the folks that do always swab for that matter.
What is your experience with blocking the flame channel? I seem to always experience this after several shots when swabbing. Do you add the powder charge first, or not swab clear to the bottom?

I'm not Dutch but will give my response. The flame channel is no problem when swabbing if done properly. I swab between every shot using a damp (as in not wet) flannel patch. My jag is properly sized. Too large a jag will push crud down the bore.

 

[renegadehunter]

I do have a drill and sandpaper, so I'll give it a try.