Can the need to swab be fixed?

[Rifleman1776]

I was swabbing every shot just for the ease of loading and getting nice groups.

You have answered your own question. As Dutch preaches, without swabbing you are shooting with a different barrel every shot. Swabbing equates to consistency in results. *bleep* the shooters who do not like waiting the few extra seconds it takes you to swab. I'll betcha when they see you starting to win they will decide to swab also. Understand, there is no special place in heaven for those who think it is great to not swab.

 

[Black Hand]

*bleep* the shooters who do not like waiting the few extra seconds it takes you to swab. I'll betcha when they see you starting to win they will decide to swab also.

Some of us shooters don't care, because you can't eat a paper/steel target....

 

[CTShooter]

My gun shoots minute of food, first shot to last, without a swab. So bleep me, but my process does exactly what I want, and funny, I never said anything negative about those that choose too.

The great thing about this sport is you are free to do what makes you happy, no need to *bleep* anyone

 

[Black Hand]

My gun shoots minute of food, first shot to last, without a swab. So bleep me, but my process does exactly what I want, and funny, I never said anything negative about those that choose too.

The great thing about this sport is you are free to do what makes you happy, no need to *bleep* anyone

Some people feel that attacking (rather than discussing) the other side's position gives their position greater weight. It merely makes their point look weaker.
Often/frequently/always used by many/most/all politicians to their great detriment with people who are capable of thinking for themselves...

 

[brayhaven]

Brayhaven - I see how your system could work. A tight fitting PRB is key to your system. I believe most muzzle loader shooters are not using a truly (tested) tight fitting PRB. One that shows the patch weave marks deeply embossed all the way around the ball, not just on the lands.

How wet it your patch?

A 9:1 mix of 99% alcohol to caster oil. I think/hope the alcohol lasts on the patch till the ball is seated, in a warm barrel heated by firing or the sun the alcohol is going to evaporate off very very fast leaving just the castor oil smeared in the bore and on the patch. Luckily castor oil is the slipperyest oil known.

It seem that the goal of muzzleloading is to keep the powder fouling soft enough to make raming down the next shots PRB doable for many repeated firings. With that goal in mind I don’t see forum posts mentioning shooter observing a “lube star” present on their rifles muzzle - like one sees on his BP cartridge firearm.
I do see many posts that tell how hard the powder fouling gets and the difficulty in trying to push a PRB through it.
I wonder if shooters are just not using enough lube, like a lube cookie between powder and PRB a large glob of something soft and gooey like SPG or homemade Emmerts lube.

I shoot A Lyman GPR 54 cal flintlock 32” barrel with 85 grs GOEX 2fg PRB plus a 58 cal felt wad that’s been soaked in melted mink oil.
The 32” x .54 cal rifled bore presents a lot of surface area to coat with fouling. Lucky most of it stays in the lower half of the barrel but still that’s a big surface area to wet down and I think it asking too much of a small quantity of lube to soften all that fouling.

I just put a few drops on the patch just before loading. Wet but not too wet. And I don’t like to put any water down a barrel when shooting. I’m sure the alcohol does flash off quickly, it’s just a carrier for the oil and to clean the fouling from the previous shot upon loading. Only needs to stick around a minute or less. But it stays much longer. IN the time fire pistol matches at friendship, I prelubed 10 patches and they stayed OK through the series. Though last one was drier than the first. You could even call it swabbing with the tight lubed ball and patch. Shooting groups with the test barreL scoped, it shot tighter groups than swabbing. Many under an inch at 100. The small bores my wife and I shoot at the matches are more susceptible to fouling than larger bores. 32 pistol & 36 rifle. I have made a lot of different formulas over the years “mule milk”. This one I cameup with for cold weather, but now use it all the time. I used castor oil in my old racing boats and alcohol. Very low ash and, as you point out, great lubricity. No powder contamination. I use the same method with my 50 cal for the silhouette shoots and it works the same way.

 

[Carbon 6]

Some people feel that attacking (rather than discussing) the other side's position gives their position greater weight. It merely makes their point look weaker.

Addressed to everyone;

When I was younger I despised swabbing, thought those old guys were slow and wasting time yakking and swabbing when they could be loading and shooting. What a difference in opinion decades of experience can make. I swab now because it is enjoyable, it slows down an aging heartbeat and maintains my accuracy using BP. It also make final cleaning a breeze. Every shot has to be cleaned from the bore, you can do them one at a time or all at once. I'll leave it up to the individual to decide which is easier.

If swabbing becomes an issue for a hunter I question if swabbing is their real problem. How many shot's does it take to bag your quarry ?

For target shooting, swabbing is an issue. For years I didn't swab, I shot Pyrodex with spit lube. If the bore began to get tight, the next patch got more spit, problem solved.

I have chosen to accept and embrace swabbing as an integral part of the process. Choose what works for you but,
Don't be to set in your own opinions, things change over time.

 

[CTShooter]

And if we started with swabbing after every shot and decided, that just isn't how I want to do it. I hunt, is swabbing a "problem" as you put it, no, it's something I didn't like about the sport, so I learned a method that doesn't require it.
Swabbing is not the holy Grail of accuracy, Dutches system may be great for some people, but it's not the only way.

The issue as I see it, your either stuck on the opinion that swabbing is the holy Grail and is the only way to get accuracy, or you are willing to accept that there are other options, and you do what works for you without pushing your opinion.
Like you said, don't be set in your opinion, things change, both ways

 

[Carbon 6]

The issue as I see it, your either stuck on the opinion that swabbing is the holy Grail and is the only way to get accuracy, or you are willing to accept that there are other options, and you do what works for you without pushing your opinion.

Aren't you ardently pushing your own opinion as well ? Isn't that the very thing you are complaining about ?

Another person's opinion does not prevent you from having a choice.

A lack of knowledge and information does.

I think what you view as "your either stuck on the opinion that swabbing is the holy Grail and is the only way to get accuracy" are just people sharing their experience in an effort to help others be knowledgeable and informed.

 

[Black Hand]

Swabbing is not the holy Grail of accuracy, Dutches system may be great for some people, but it's not the only way.

Maybe it's my natural skepticism, but I question anything that is touted as THE answer. Claims of ultimate truth have abounded through the centuries and invariably have been wrong...

 

[Carbon 6]

In muzzleloading, there are many solutions. However there are not always many problems.

 

[Black Hand]

In muzzleloading, there are many solutions. However there are not always many problems.

How very true. I've seen too many solutions created for non-existent or imagined problems...

 

[CTShooter]

Ummm *bleep* those that don't want to take the time to wipe?
I don't see that as an opinion, I view that as " if you don't do it my way, bleep you"
That is not sharing information and is not helpful in sharing an opinion.

I found that wiping doesn't work for me, that is sharing my experience in an effort to be helpful. I have repeatedly said, this is what works for me, never have I pushed my opinion as the only way to get accuracy or as the only method that works. I even went as far as to keep my method to private conversation so as not to start the war we are having now.

 

[CTShooter]

And this may sound funny, but the topic of the thread is, "Can the need to swab be fixed" which to me means the OP is actually looking for ways to not have to swab between shots. So I'm supplying my experience that yes, there are methods that do not require swabbing between shots, which is the information the OP is actually looking for

 

[Carbon 6]

I found that wiping doesn't work for me,

That is ok and good to know. A lot of things don't work for some people because they do them differently or there is some unknown variable that leads to failure. Consider, if even for a moment that the process could be wrong even if the act is right. This applies to both wiping and not wiping.
I can wipe or not wipe and achieve success both ways.

that is sharing my experience in an effort to be helpful. I have repeatedly said, this is what works for me, never have I pushed my opinion as the only way to get accuracy or as the only method that works. I even went as far as to keep my method to private conversation so as not to start the war we are having now.

Is withholding information helpful ?

In order for there to be a war, both sides must attack. I just don't see that here.

 

[renegadehunter]

Yes, I've found so far that swabbing gives me the best accuracy, hands down. I have no argument for that, at least with the things I've tried so far, and don't want to argue it...I've found it to be true without a doubt. What I found odd was that when not swabbing my accuracy went completely haywire. I've read about several folks that can shoot without swabbing and get what I like to call "minute of deer" accuracy at least, which will be fine for the type of shoots the local club puts on. I thought I might enjoy the shoot a bit more if I didn't have to swab, yet could have the confidence that my rifle will hit POA if I do my part, so I started the topic to see if anyone had had the same experience as me and had found a way, through a different lube or whatever, so that I could try it and see if it would at least maintain minute of deer accuracy in my rifle as well. Perhaps my rifle will simply always have to be swabbed, if so then I have no issue doing it. But I do like to play around with different lubes, as I find that a very enjoyable part of this obsession with sidelocks. So whether I find something that will work or not, I'll enjoy the path to find out.
I already know that I can shoot with Hoppes BP solvent at the range or a club shoot and if I swab I get very good accuracy. I also know that I can buy pre-lubed patches with wonderlube, which is very advised against from most, and it gives me the best groups I've ever been able to shoot out of this gun so I use them as my hunting patch. Both of the above shoot well and I could simply stay with them and be fine. But...I like to experiment, it's part of the fun for me. I don't find swabbing as a "problem"...I just wondered if it could be "fixed" so to speak, and want to try whether it works for me or not.

 

[CTShooter]

If the method is consistent and the results acceptable, it's not wrong.

Wrong implies that there is only one correct answer to the question.

And I'm willing to share information if asked by someone interested, I'm not with holding anything, I'm supplying it to those with a genuine interest.

 

[Carbon 6]

Wrong implies that there is only one correct answer to the question.

That is a personal interpretation.
A question can have more than one correct answer, it can also have more than one wrong answer.

The question of "Can the need to Swab be fixed?" Is really an opinion implying that swabbing is wrong or bad, in the form of a question. It is an opinion based on personal preference.

 

[CTShooter]

To answer the OPs opinion that swabbing is somehow bad or wrong and can it be eliminated from the loading process.
Yes it can be eliminated from the loading process with acceptable results if you choose too.
If by doing so, in your opinion the results are acceptable, then in your opinion, you have found that swabbing is not required and in your opinion is not an acceptable practice for your shooting method, in your opinion.

That is my personal interpretation, your milage may vary

 

[Carbon 6]

To answer the OPs opinion that swabbing is somehow bad or wrong and can it be eliminated from the loading process.
Yes it can be eliminated from the loading process with acceptable results if you choose too.

I think I pretty much said that very thing in my fist post on this topic.

 

[Black Hand]

Whether swabbing between shots is right or wrong is a metaphysical/philosophical question.
Whether it is necessary or not is something each must determine.
Can accuracy & precision be achieved and/or maintained without swabbing between shots? Yes...