Canoe Gun: the real story

[tg]

I do not think it matter whether we think the term sounds right or what a tractor gun brings to mind, but whether those cut down gun of the past were actually done so for the specific use in canoes, thus the gun type and term being a historic item, I have missed the documentation of all the 18th century cut down trade guns that seem to have existedmyself.

 

So how DO you load a 42-inch barreled flinter while in a canoe, ...

The same way you'd load it if you were sitting on the ground. Seriously. :v

 

[Mike Brooks]

So how DO you load a 42-inch barreled flinter while in a canoe, ...

The same way you'd load it if you were sitting on the ground. Seriously. :v

You can load them laying down too, I've done it more than once. :wink:
Maybe back in the day somebody might have come to Curly and asked him to build a gun so short he could load it laying down........ I suppose it would be called a "laying down gun" today. :rotf: :v

 

[hanshi]

I'll agree with you that it's quite possible to reload while sitting on the ground. I use a folding canvas chair and that makes it even easier. Lying down? Uh, uh. If I tried lying down I'd never be able to get back up. :idunno:

I still stand by my statements on the shorty guns. They are the only ones that can be loaded surreptitiously underneath a card table. :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Lying down? Uh, uh. If I tried lying down I'd never be able to get back up.

That was back in my wasted youth. I can get up still, it just takes a long time. :rotf:

 

[BillinOregon]

Lying down? Uh, uh. If I tried lying down I'd never be able to get back up.

That was back in my wasted youth. I can get up still, it just takes a long time. :rotf:

Mike: Tack on another five years and a rotten L3-4 disk and get back to me on that!

:rotf:

 

[sepiatone]

Canoe guns were originally called "chamber pot" guns...to be loaded while sitting on the Jon. No one wanted to order a gun with such a name so they thought "canoe" sounded better. This is what an old timer once told me right before he said he was Howard Houghs.

 

[Stumpkiller]

That's why I carry a long rifle - so I can get all the way back up. :haha:

 

[Extranero]

Sir William Drummond Stewart referred to them as "running guns". I don't care much what others call them or how they load them as long as they don't point them at me.

Sean

 

[rblackburn]

"I see the issue mainly as one of those cases where folks buy something they like then try to make it fit into history, the only real problem with this is that it can lead newcommers down a slippery slope."

In response to TG, from a newbie’s point of view...

I have been reading this forum for over 3 years and never felt inclined to post, but I have to say that there are many members posting that may give themselves too much credit and too little credit to the rest of us. Though I find many of the threads stimulating, giving me reason to question a previously conceived idea, I will not take the word of others presenting their interpretation of the same reference books and journals that I use - I will make my own determination...and interpretation.

A word of caution, again from a newbie's point of view. The canoe gun situation is a black and white example. It seems all agree there were shortened guns around for whatever purpose they were needed or wanted. The reason for the name has been given and clearly stated by laffindog. No confusion with this newbie about any of it. The stimulation factor? After all that has been said, I can't wait to own a ”˜canoe’ gun! :wink:

 

[tg]

"It seems all agree there were shortened guns around for whatever purpose they were needed or wanted."


Perhaps you can help clarify for me the references to the numbers of cut down guns estimated by period references/surviving examples in the 18th century and what areas they were found in? The where and when are critical when discussing anything from the past as to its historic valididty.

My main point was that there is often a lot of manure floating around this forum and others and that individual research is the best way to find the facts, I have seen many seem rely on what is said rather than do much studying,( I call it the short cut syndrome) but evidently I was mistaken and will not repeat the mistake. With their PC/HC rubber mocs it should not matter if they step in a pile of it.

 

[Robby]

I seem to remember some tribes of Indians in South America coating their feet with latex sap from the rubber tree, creating rubber mocs. :grin:
Robby

 

[BillinOregon]

I seem to remember some tribes of Indians in South America coating their feet with latex sap from the rubber tree, creating rubber mocs. :grin:
Robby

And we're off in a new and novel direction ...

:grin:

 

[tg]

I suspect that some stuck their heads in the bucket of goo as well, at any rate it is good to know that the newcommers do not require any direction as to not relying to much on pages of opinion and focus more their own research, and as for the Canoe gun it really does not mater unless one is into re-enacting and then the first point to confirm is whether the particular gun would be available to the person/ place of the persona, no matter what length of the barrel. Knowing that the newcommers are well covered on their own will help me reduce the amount of typing I do which is a good thing.

 

[LaBonte]

"It seems all agree there were shortened guns around for whatever purpose they were needed or wanted."


Perhaps you can help clarify for me the references to the numbers of cut down guns estimated by period references/surviving examples in the 18th century and what areas they were found in? The where and when are critical when discussing anything from the past as to its historic valididty.

My main point was that there is often a lot of manure floating around this forum and others and that individual research is the best way to find the facts, I have seen many seem rely on what is said rather than do much studying,( I call it the short cut syndrome) but evidently I was mistaken and will not repeat the mistake. With their PC/HC rubber mocs it should not matter if they step in a pile of it.

Well tg neither laffindog or myself stated that such short trade guns were not well documented at all for the 18th Century, but rather for the 19th (which is well documented and which even Mike Brooks agreed with) so why the continous harping about the 18th - no where above was it even suggested that they were widely used during that period except in one two distinct situations. On the other hand there are verified short guns used pre-1800, coach gunes for just one example, but agin it all depends on who, where, and when. Nope the gent you quoted did not qualify his statement re: the use of them as to when or where, but his statement is still basically true, just not qualified.

As for the PC/HC rubber mocs - nope not mocs but rubber overshoes can be documented to the RMFT of the 1830's albeit in limited amounts. See the info regarding Fort Hall in southern Idaho..

As for the newbies or oldies one should always cross reference and verify what others post - doesn't matter who or what it is they post especially if verified references are not included, but then again maybe I give the newbies more credit like the one who posted above......

 

[Robby]

If I remember correctly tg, the tribe that stuck their heads in it were referred to, by the Spanish, as the Caucho cuello's, rubber neckers.
Robby

 

[tg]

I was not talking to you Labonte or Matt but to our so well read newcommer, I am very much aware of the 19th century provenace but many of the short guns seem to be used in earlier personas from what I have observed and thought maybe our new member may have some additional info on their existance in this period.In the thread that spawned this one some matter of fact statements were made about short guns being on record as the desired type with no dates mantioned. When contonuing to garner information one mist try to direct questions time specificaly with most things in the hobby, if the is "harping" to you Labonte then I do not give a Damn. Matt has one of the best products on the,market for non re-enaactors it makes no difference for with a persona and serious interest then it may make a diference if the short guns can be placed with any degree of certainty in the earlier times,or even in a particular place no matter the time. don't really care if that offends anyone.

 

[matt denison]

After watching this thread evolve the most revealing thing I've noticed is that Stumpkiller changed the picture in his avatar! What happened to the big ol' grinning straight on picture? You're such a handsome guy.. :haha:

Fot TG and some others the ONLY provenance you will find in the whole world for Canoe Guns is what I wrote in my original post. That's it, there ain't no more.

As for my statement of "hundreds of chopped down guns" you will have to look in museums, private collections to understand it. I have personally seen perhaps a dozen or more and handled most of them. There are at least four of them within a hundred mile radius of where I live out here in the middle of nowhere. One is hanging in the Axmen hardware store in Missoula. (the owner,s son thought I was nutz when he saw me trying to take a picture of it with my camera phone) It is a relic, held together with wire. Charles Hanson shows at least three chopped guns in his book The Northwest Gun. A fellow that Iknow with a large collection of HBC artifacts has TWO chopped guns in his collection (among other unmodified guns) I have had several brought to me at my tables at various gun shows, chopped, sometimes mangled in other ways too. They are out there, you gotta find 'em. I can not recall much or anything in private journals about natives chopping their guns or what they did with them after a catastrofic burst barrel. We do know that they tended to burst once in a while. What happened to them then? As LaBonte said, "there are scads of them out in the west".

I can't comment on 18th century chopped guns. There are so few to look at in the first place and even so many of the "good" ones didn't survive that it is silly to expect the "bad" ones to make it into 21st century collections.

Not argueing, just having a conversation here. Some love their short guns or Canoe Guns, some hate them or hate the name. That is the way of the world and what makes some of these conversations interesting.

 

[kleinDeutsch]

The forts were Fort Michilimacinac and Fort Apache. Book " Success In The North American Fur Trade "

 

[tg]

Well Matt, I was not really looking for any provenance for "canoe guns" I don't care about the term. what I have always looked for is for 18th century cut down guns not just survivors but any mention of them in estates, logs, journels and such and not only the short ones but any and all styles, and also the regions that the NW gun was found during the 18th century as it seems a bit of a waste to argue a short NW gun into a persona where there were not even any long ones :idunno:. I think if you would have called it a "short NW gun" or "cut
down NW gun" many of these threads would not support themselves :wink: As I said the term means nothing to me and obviously the newcommers have no problem sorting it all out so everyone is happy.