Canoe Gun: the real story

[petew]

I am new to this sport, and these type threads are a disapointing. I thought that Traditional archers were bad for being obsessive compulsive when it comes to nit picking political corectness, but I may be wrong.
Gosh fellas, A bit of leeway is realy not that bad. If you feel the need to pretend you are Daniel Boon, or Napolean , thats great, but why all the fuss over being so period corect for the rest of us.
We don't give a hoot if our gun is an exact copy. We never will.
I get told I can't use a pre lube patch, I can't use a peep sight, I can't use a certain powder,or type of flint etc.
In the end I don't care. I ram what I want in the barrel, and I will switch to a peep sight on my guns because I can not see the darn leaf sights that are there now.
In the end These political corect mandates are a driving force to discourage many people from participating.
There are many many of us that love a gun that resembles the days gone by. A flint lock is still a flintlock.A percussion cap is still just that.
How ironic that those with such a demand for period corectness have no problem using a modern steel barrel, a modern Lock etc. Stitch the costume with an electric sewing machine.

Let the spirit of the experience shooting old technology have a chance.
As for a canoe gun, I could care less what the origin or name comes from. It is a Gun I hope to see , shoot, and own one of these days. It is basicaly from what I read a primitive type firearm that I want own . It is still a black powder old style gun that would be handy for many of the places I hunt.


Pete

 

[tg]

"I get told I can't use a pre lube patch, I can't use a peep sight, I can't use a certain powder,or type of flint etc"

If you are hanging out somewhere that people are telling you that you can't use an item then you might need to find a different place to hang, around here we simply try to confirm what was and was not used based on the best information we have and try to give anyone an oppertunity to be able to make the best, factual based choices that they wish to. Many do not care for historicaly correct things, which is fine there are no rules which say that one must be interested in this aspect of the hobby that I have seen. I have not seen anyone tell anyone that they have to use a particular item around here,and no ones feelings have been hurt of someone chooses to operate on a different level than others. The oddest occurance is when people take offence when someone mentions the low or non existant level of historical accuracy of most any item and many who have not been in the thread thus far dive in angrily defending the item in question via a wide range of non acceptable non scientific methods, s though they have been attacked. the reality of the situation is that the item has simply been put in the proper historical classification group based on what we now understand about said item.Once again I have not witnesed anyone teling someone that they cannot use any item. It is often stated that all research shows that the item was not used or even around at a particular time or that the item was much different than some current manufactures have presented it in their present offering.If I missed something or spoke in error I appologize, as it is not right to tell anyone they cannot use any item, which is quite different from telling them an item does not fit into a historical time and place for whatever reason/reasons.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Could care a fig about political correctness. But period correctness is worth taking a bit of effort if you are after that aspect of muzzleloading. No one tells you what you have to do; but some events may tell you certain things are not allowed. Easy out is to avoid shooting at those events or attending those activities.

A flintlock will tell you what powder you have to use; at least for prime and for the most part the main charge. Percussions will eat anything.

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Hi Pete!

I understand that it's frustrating. I'm with you in one crucial aspect: it's the craft of muzzleloading which counts for me, not absolute historical correctness. On the other hand, I haven't read anyone on this thread saying you CAN'T do anything. It's just that if you wish to be historically correct, there are things that you shouldn't pretend are authentic. And that's good too, isn't it? In this thread, I have learned that the term "canoe gun" is 20th Century. If I want to use a "Canoe gun", that's totally cool...but I shouldn't pretend that they rountinely intentionally made short barrelled guns to use in canoes back in the earlier times. That's good info, I'm thinking.

Please stay with us...I can learn from you!

Pete in California.

 

[pargent]

July 2 1806 CLARK had Shields cut down the barrels on 2 rifles which had burst near the muzzles. one of the rifles ended up quite short.this was a common way to refurb a damaged gun . The British ordenance system did it ,the HBC did it with gun makers who were under contract to work at the bay .these are well documented cases. :thumbsup:

 

[rich pierce]

And they looked like cut down guns that one would use because they didn't have anything else available; no trading post in reach. Sort of like a car in a wreck where the front fender is crushed against the wheel. Tear the fender off so you can drive the car, until you can get the car fixed or get a new car. I don't doubt that cut down burst guns existed or were used, just does not seem likely that anyone of means would continue to use one past the emergency stage.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I have also seen a lot of brazed repairs on old barrels. Just because a barrel ruptured doesn't mean it was going to get cut off. Going to this extent to save a full length barrel sort of points out how valued a long barrel was. Guns in the old days weren't cut off willy-nilly just so you could sit down in a canoe to load. :wink:
In fact as an example of how silly this cut off your barrel so you can sit to load thing is, I got a shot at a deer Saturday that was in a herd. Took my shot and the doe I shot took off, the rest stayed in place. I was sitting under a cedar tree and reloaded with the gun laying across my lap.... no big deal, done it many times before. :idunno: Of course the deer herd took off as soon as I was ramming the ball home.... :shake:
With all due respect for Matt and his product, if you can't load a full length gun while sitting in a canoe it's possible you have no business in a canoe. :haha:
I do have romantic notions about the old buffalo running guns that were trade guns modified for that specific use. All of them that I have seen just wreak of their history. I would have loved to have tried using one on a buffalo run in my wasted youth......not so much now :wink:

 

[tg]

""I get told I can't use a pre lube patch, I can't use a peep sight, I can't use a certain powder,or type of flint etc"

The more I think about it could you share where such things happen so the rest of us can avoid such unpleasantness?

 

[Hawkwood]

It is the nature of online forums that some posters seem to be more into arguing than discussing. Ignore this, as ultimately it's irrelevant. I read through the postings to glean usable information and there is alot of it on this forum....for free. After perusing the offerings for awhile you'll filter the dross. :wink:

 

[Okwaho]

I have also seen a lot of brazed repairs on old barrels. Just because a barrel ruptured doesn't mean it was going to get cut off. Going to this extent to save a full length barrel sort of points out how valued a long barrel was. Guns in the old days weren't cut off willy-nilly just so you could sit down in a canoe to load. :wink:
In fact as an example of how silly this cut off your barrel so you can sit to load thing is, I got a shot at a deer Saturday that was in a herd. Took my shot and the doe I shot took off, the rest stayed in place. I was sitting under a cedar tree and reloaded with the gun laying across my lap.... no big deal, done it many times before. :idunno: Of course the deer herd took off as soon as I was ramming the ball home.... :shake:
With all due respect for Matt and his product, if you can't load a full length gun while sitting in a canoe it's possible you have no business in a canoe. :haha:
I do have romantic notions about the old buffalo running guns that were trade guns modified for that specific use. All of them that I have seen just wreak of their history. I would have loved to have tried using one on a buffalo run in my wasted youth......not so much now :wink:

Hey chicken man. I agree totally although I'm not sure about your marksmanship.
First as to the braized barrels,I have a Fusil fin {French/Liegeoise}dating to about 1700-1720,you know the one where we copied the brass mounts.I noticed a hole in the forestock about 19 1/2" from the muzzle of the 45" barrel and a needle passed into the stock passed on into the barrel. I pulled the barrel and guess what,there was braizing an inch or so away where there had been an earlier blowout.The repair doesn't show on the barrel after replacing it in the forestock. I cn only speculate as the long usage of this gun.Also the muzzle is worn on the bottom of the barrel resulting frpm long usage of a wooden rod.This occurs as a result of the wooden rod picking up grit and producing wear on the bottom of the muzzle. Thanks to Ed Rayl for that little tidbit of information.The gun also has a worn elongated hole in the bottom of the forestock just above the lock panels.This type of wear is generally attributed to long time saddle wear.When I got the gun it had a probably incorrect percussion lock plate and a battered drum and nipple.It has since been restored using old but correct parts.

As to loading a gun while lying down one need only consider the Confederate and Federal skirmishers while on open ground to minimize exposure from opposing rifle fire.

Then there is the well known Davies painting showing Natives with long barreled guns in the Great Lakes in the 18th-early 19th century. century.

I'm running out of time and will add a post on those "correctly" post distribution shortened guns. :v :bow:
Tom Patton

 

[tg]

"It is the nature of online forums that some posters seem to be more into arguing than discussing'

Very true, as BS and missinformation put forth as fact/history does tend to spawn arguements after discussions offer no relief from the staunchly defended incorrect information in many cases

 

[Paul R]

Pete, TG & Hawkwood have pretty well nailed it. If you haven't done so already, take the time to read all the back posts on the forum. Don't try to do it all at once or your head will start to spin. There is a wealth of good information posted here, as well as a bunch of manure. It will be up to you to determine which is which. You will soon learn which posters tend to give the best advice & information. On the other hand, some of the posters that you are less inclined to respect will, sometimes, also come up with good nuggets. Keep an open mind and remember every one here is here because of our common interest in traditional muzzleloaders. Some are very into the historical and period correct theme. Others want to just have a historical look to our guns on up to those who just want a sidelock to shoot or hunt with. When I started here a little over a year ago, I thought I wanted to shoot those little plastic thingies we don't talk about out of my side lock with a thumbhole stock. I still do, but I don't talk about it out of respect for the others, (and the rules). In the meantime, I have been converted to the dark side and am now building a fullstock flinter so I can shoot PRB. It will, however, have a thumbhole stock.
So, find your niche, have fun, and, as others have said, 'Make Good Smoke'.
Paul

 

[hanshi]

:thumbsup: Like you I'm quite satisfied with approximate HC/PC and really don't give a hoot otherwise. Also threads like this one sometimes take on a life of their own - like a vampire :rotf: - and it takes a [strike]stake[/strike] no, steak through the heart to kill them. They ARE fun to read, though.

For instance, there certainly were sewing machines in the 18th century. Anybody ever heard of WIVES? I just made a million female enemies, I know.

Mike: was that a smoothie or a rifle; just curious. Gun or no gun I have no business in a canoe at all. :grin:

 

[matt denison]

Hc/PC is what you make of it. When in Rome do as the Romans do. When I am with certain people or at certain events I am capable of being as PC as any of 'em. Other times I just like to relax and shoot whatevr and however the mood strikes me.

When I started this hobby I was in it only to shoot the guns. It was a break from high precision modern target shooting. I'd go to shoots in blue jeans and flannel shirt and didn't care what anyone thought. What got me was the off hand trail walks ala rendezvous. I got so i shot mzzldrs. every opportunity. The history stuff just sort of rubbed off on me. Then as I graduated to more correct guns I wanted accutrements to match ie; correct horn, bag, then mocs., then some buckskin drawers and Mtn. Man shirt, a correct camp, on and on. I bought books and more books. Soon the history and making correct equipment became as important as the guns. Reading about history and reenacting has enhanced my life. It has also provided me with a way to make a living :grin:

Some guys go for history, some just want to shoot the guns. That is A OK with me either way. I do enjoy being in the woods with other like minded HC guys though...

Everybody has to start somewhere and this forum is a good place for a new shooter to get a start. Let's not run 'em off.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Mike: was that a smoothie or a rifle; just curious. Gun or no gun I have no business in a canoe at all.

I was hunting with a borrowed mid 70's era TC renagade flintlock in .54 cal. Historically as accurate as a canoe gun! :haha: Beggars can't be choosers. :wink:

 

[tg]

"Everybody has to start somewhere and this forum is a good place for a new shooter to get a start. Let's not run 'em off."

Good post Matt, I am at a bit of a loss how explaining the difference twixt something that is PC/HC and something that is not will run anyone off if they are really interested in the sport, and it as been made very clear to me that new shooters/hunters require no advice or help from the more experienced folks on the forum as those of us who have been at this for 30-40 years think we know more than we do and newcommers know much more than the experienced folks give them credit for,as some can absorb all there is to know in three years.I cannot think of one example of anyone wanting or trying to run off a beginner as long as I have been on the forums, now trying to run off some folks who have been pedddling BS for 40 years is another story entirely and usually a hopeless cause. :grin:

 

[satwel]

And all this time I thought a canoe gun was what one used for hunting canoes.

 

[preston cook]

then is a barn gun for hunting barns ?

 

[Dave Marsh]

Mike, perhaps #309 should be assigned to you!!!!

 

[Mike Brooks]

HHHMMM... :hmm: I kinda have # 312 or so planned for me. I need to get something built soon so I can get back in the groove again. My off hand sucks! :haha:
But then again, turkey season is coming, might need a tight choked big bore...... :hmm: