Canoe gun.

[Coinneach]

Consider Pecatonica River for an affordable kit.

 

[skwerleater]

Maybe consider a Pedersoli trade gun and cut it down to your desired length. There is one for sale on here now. My friend bought one last year and it’s a pretty nice piece.

 

[bpd303]

I have never "built" a gun either from scratch or kit, however I have assembled a few from scrounged, bartered, begged and various avenues for acquiring the parts I wanted.
Here is the Buggy rifle (canoe gun), I assembled years ago. It is a sweet shooting rifle. <AMR> Stock, back action lock, 15 1/2 in Green Mountain barrel, forged steel ram rod & sling swivels. I have a total of $200 in it.

 

[Rob M.]

I have never "built" a gun either from scratch or kit, however I have assembled a few from scrounged, bartered, begged and various avenues for acquiring the parts I wanted.
Here is the Buggy rifle (canoe gun), I assembled years ago. It is a sweet shooting rifle. <AMR> Stock, back action lock, 15 1/2 in Green Mountain barrel, forged steel ram rod & sling swivels. I have a total of $200 in it.
View attachment 370078

Very cool !!

 

[Rebel bull]

here's a couple of pics of my version of a canoe/ kids gun it started life as a box of mismatched parts that I had laying around the barrel was a true sewer pipe it was completely plugged solid with rust and fouling it's the only one I've ever had to un breech to un plug. the rifling is eroded and pitted but you can still see lands and grooves. went through multiple scotch pads both green and red. because it's a Spanish barrel i had to clean it carefully using a proper sized drill bit and re tap. assembled it and the damn thing shoots great and because of the adjustable stock (length of pull) the grand kids have no problem shooting it. it will shoot a 3 shot 1" group at 25 yards with 20 grains of 3f goex and a 490 patched ball I cut and crowned the barrel at 16" and milled the new sight dovetail. total invested unknown, time about 8 hours over a winter

 

[andy52]

Let me clarify what my idea of a canoe gun is, a short-barreled flintlock smooth bore in 20ga capable of shooting shot or round ball. I wouldn't need to be accurate beyond 50 yds.

 

[tenngun]

My friend Tamara was considering the blanket gun or canoe gun and I advised against using a Brown Bess (BB) to make a blanket gun.

The most important point is that it would NOT be historically correct. I am sure that Tamara would not be happy with a gun at any events she attended unless it was historically correct.

At that time in history, the quality of a BB would be of a high quality gun and nobody would want to ruin that kind of weapon. Again, being of high quality, no one would have to shorten the barrel to correct any shooting flaws from a poor quality gun.

Shooting a blanket gun is done with the arm stretched forward as opposed to the tradition butt to shoulder position. Cutting down a BB would make for a much heavier blanket gun and even for me that weight stretched out would quickly become uncomfortable. This would of course be a bigger problem for Tamara.

Historically, a Native with a BB would be very rare. BB’s were given out to some upper status Natives (Chief or Sub-Chief) to help solidify their loyalty to the British and the loyalty of their followers during the War of 1812. Some might have acquired a BB by picking one up from a dead British infantry soldier on the battlefield. However, after the battles, those BB’s tended to be quickly confiscated by the British if the stocks were so engraved with the “B arrow O” British Ordinance mark. In some cases, trade guns would be offered in exchange for the BB. Otherwise, the only guns the Natives typically got were through trade and they were a style called the Northwest Trade Gun (NWTG).



NWTG were made literally to be given away. They were cheaply made and as we say today – no frills. They were basic grade smooth bore and differed from military grade without the same fit and finish.

Shooting quality also sucked. They were intentionally smaller cal. so that any captured stocks of military balls (75 cal.) could not be used. They also had no provision for a bayonet.



The calibre of the NWTG’s were a much smaller bore than the 75 cal. of the BB. NWTG’s tended to be smaller and lighter (less cost to transport for the trader) and tended to be about the 60 cal. range. (Mine is 68 cal.) Some did go as low as 50 cal. and some as high as 68 cal. Having his choice in a trade, a Native would opt for the higher cal. believing he got more power and distance, rather than a lower cal.

A blanket gun is different than a canoe gun. A blanket gun is made from a full sized gun hacked off to be a pistol. We only know of one historical context for these
A canoe gun is just a sawn off full size gun. It’s made to be shouldered and fired normally.
We know historic examples of cut back guns although a purpose made canoe gun is a modern concept

 

[Rob M.]

Couple blanket

A blanket gun is different than a canoe gun. A blanket gun is made from a full sized gun hacked off to be a pistol. We only know of one historical context for these
A canoe gun is just a sawn off full size gun. It’s made to be shouldered and fired normally.
We know historic examples of cut back guns although a purpose made canoe gun is a modern concept

Couple blanket guns I've made ... If they'll download ...

 

[Ninering62]

Consider Pecatonica River for an affordable kit.

Yes, thats a great option. You can pick out each component of your gun, so you'll get a barrel, lock & trigger, & stock of your choosing, all put together. Thats where my English Rigby tribute gun came from.

 

[Clark Badgett]

My friend Tamara was considering the blanket gun or canoe gun and I advised against using a Brown Bess (BB) to make a blanket gun.

The most important point is that it would NOT be historically correct. I am sure that Tamara would not be happy with a gun at any events she attended unless it was historically correct.

At that time in history, the quality of a BB would be of a high quality gun and nobody would want to ruin that kind of weapon. Again, being of high quality, no one would have to shorten the barrel to correct any shooting flaws from a poor quality gun.

Shooting a blanket gun is done with the arm stretched forward as opposed to the tradition butt to shoulder position. Cutting down a BB would make for a much heavier blanket gun and even for me that weight stretched out would quickly become uncomfortable. This would of course be a bigger problem for Tamara.

Historically, a Native with a BB would be very rare. BB’s were given out to some upper status Natives (Chief or Sub-Chief) to help solidify their loyalty to the British and the loyalty of their followers during the War of 1812. Some might have acquired a BB by picking one up from a dead British infantry soldier on the battlefield. However, after the battles, those BB’s tended to be quickly confiscated by the British if the stocks were so engraved with the “B arrow O” British Ordinance mark. In some cases, trade guns would be offered in exchange for the BB. Otherwise, the only guns the Natives typically got were through trade and they were a style called the Northwest Trade Gun (NWTG).



NWTG were made literally to be given away. They were cheaply made and as we say today – no frills. They were basic grade smooth bore and differed from military grade without the same fit and finish.

Shooting quality also sucked. They were intentionally smaller cal. so that any captured stocks of military balls (75 cal.) could not be used. They also had no provision for a bayonet.



The calibre of the NWTG’s were a much smaller bore than the 75 cal. of the BB. NWTG’s tended to be smaller and lighter (less cost to transport for the trader) and tended to be about the 60 cal. range. (Mine is 68 cal.) Some did go as low as 50 cal. and some as high as 68 cal. Having his choice in a trade, a Native would opt for the higher cal. believing he got more power and distance, rather than a lower cal.

There is so much wrong with this posting, I don’t even know where to start.

 

[andy52]

There is so much wrong with this posting, I don’t even know where to start.

Other than I didn't say anything about being historically correct in my OP.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Other than I didn't say anything about being historically correct in my OP.

Well, there wasn’t a whole lot of historically correct information in it.

 

[mikesto44]

Andy52 is just looking for a trade gun or kit So why not just stick to what he wants and help him find one..?

 

[andy52]

Andy52 is just looking for a trade gun or kit So why not just stick to what he wants and help him find one..?

Trade guns are a bit longer that a canoe gun. One person here posted that there was one for sale on the forum and yes there is but it doesn't make much sense to buy a $1000 gun and have to cut the barrel and the stock down.

 

[JT1200R]

Do what you want. I look at them like cars , keep’em stock or make them how you like them

 

[mikesto44]

Andy52 check out Brotherhood of the Serpent side plate. Someone on there might have one for sale.
Also how short a barrel you want..?

 

[andy52]

Andy52 check out Brotherhood of the Serpent side plate. Someone on there might have one for sale.
Also how short a barrel you want..?

24-26 inch

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

I think you are right on. Don't know how I was thinking chambers.

Jim once showed me a gun with a 27" barrel. He said it was the only original cut-down smoothbore he had seen. He point out the end of the barrel and noted that it was much thinner on one side than the other. The barrel had been incorrectly made and had burst, so the owner had cut it off below the damaged area and used it "as is".

 

[Loyalist Dave]

So I find it interesting from an archaeological standpoint, the few examples of cut-down and heavily used guns. Some folks argue that they really didn't cut down the guns in the 18th century. My first question would be who is "they"? IF one wants to say they were not "sold" that way from a trader to a user, OK that makes sense. But AFTER sale? Who can say? The lack of 18th century examples may mean it was less often done OR it may simply mean that they being older were worn out to the point of no return and disappear from the material culture. There are more percussion and even cartridge examples extant today, but they would be much younger too.

This one is much younger than the one above

This one has a lock that was once a flintlock. No telling if the gun was shortened when converted, or if the lock was converted, and built into a trade gun of sorts, and then the barrel and butt shortened.

This one is a cut down India Pattern aka 3rd Model Bess.

So I doubt the idea of shortening the gun, was a sudden revelation to the Native Americans, and only to the Native Americans. WHY it was done is tough to say. Handier on horseback both shooting and reloading? A repair of a ruptured barrel to bring the gun back into use?

So while "documentation" of such a gun is scant outside of the use of Native Guns that survived, but not out of the realm of being "likely".

Unlike other types of gear, such as the military haversack, being the property of the government, and so likely would not have been used by a civilian away from militia duty, there isn't any provision in any records I've found that specifies a minimum length of barrel. Coupled with that "coach guns" aka blunderbuss were also known at the time.

BTW a Blunderbuss also makes for a good squirrel gun from out of a canoe, and tosses a pretty heavy ball, but the flared muzzle for easier loading on a moving platform like a coach, makes for a need for special solutions in aiming. I knew one fellow who used such, and hand a brass shelf bracket held by the tang screw, and a V notch in the edge of the barrel flare, and would align the sights and center the target in the notch. He would take deer from it without much trouble, and yes at under 50 yards.

LD

 

[RiverRat]

My avatar tells me that I might be interested in a canoe gun.