Can't get my gun to pattern

[Loyalist Dave]

Was the slow motion photos or film of black powder shot loads Dave?

It was still photos and none showed the wad moving through...only showed it at the back end, but I still thought that was what happened too. A good friend who is an engineer with a physics minor, pointed out to me one day that the wad and shot exit the barrel at the same velocity, but the shot has more relative mass than the wad, and the wad has greater surface area = more friction..., and since the medium through which both are moving is air and is the same..., the wad cannot catch up to the shot column and pass through it. Plus it would always happed and cause the donut if it were so, for the the velocity is relative to the two items, the shot and the wad... so exiting the barrel at 600 fps or exiting the barrel at 1200 fps, if the wad was going to move through the shot column in flight... it would always move through the shot column in flight.

LD

 

[crockett]

Stumpkiller- on the paper shotcups; do you force the paper slightly into the bore and then fill with a charge of shot and then cut off the excess paper, or use some other technique? BTW- thanks for the great photos.
On the donut issue. On modern shotshell reloading I use a regular crimp but some really good reloaders use a roll crimp with a card and claim better patterns so the notion the card creates donut patterns doesn't seem valid IMHO.

 

[Black Hand]

The ones I make resemble a Tootsie Roll. The shot is enclosed in brown paper, and the entire load lubed with molten deer tallow after assembly. To use, I add powder and an overshot card, seat the card then add the premade shot load (I like to cut off the end "tail" after the load is flush with the muzzle) followed by the overshot card. Seat the shot load. Prime and fire.

 

[Black Hand]

The brown paper is formed around a piece of brass tubing slightly less than bore size (just under 2 wraps of paper) and one end tied with thin linen. The measured load of shot is added, the brass tubing retracted above the shot, the paper twisted and tied. The thread and paper are trimmed and the load dunked in melted deer tallow. The loads are placed seam-side down (on newspaper) until the tallow cools & solidifies.

I usually carry 8-10 in a split-belly pouch which also contains a small tin with overpowder cards (punched from heavy posterboard) and overshot cards (punched from cereal-box weight cardboard mailers), both lubed with the (melted) deer tallow. In the picture above, you can see the 2 holes punched in the overshot card that help to relieve any back-pressure when the load/card are run down the barrel.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Was the slow motion photos or film of black powder shot loads Dave?

It was still photos and none showed the wad moving through...only showed it at the back end, but I still thought that was what happened too. A good friend who is an engineer with a physics minor, pointed out to me one day that the wad and shot exit the barrel at the same velocity, but the shot has more relative mass than the wad, and the wad has greater surface area = more friction..., and since the medium through which both are moving is air and is the same..., the wad cannot catch up to the shot column and pass through it. Plus it would always happed and cause the donut if it were so, for the the velocity is relative to the two items, the shot and the wad... so exiting the barrel at 600 fps or exiting the barrel at 1200 fps, if the wad was going to move through the shot column in flight... it would always move through the shot column in flight.

LD

I don't doubt your word or the explanation but I do think some aspects to this are missed from the assumption.
The first thing to remember is the volume of gas produced from black powder. It is much greater than smokeless.
Second is the failure to realise that the shot just on exit from the muzzle with wad still in the muzzle is slowing down where as the wad is still being driven, still acting as a piston and still in contact with the shot.
In the photos and film I have seen of smokeless loads the wad is still in contact on just leaving the muzzle!
No the wad does not shoot through a shot column! But could it not be that due to the high volume of gas from black powder the wad (if long enough) just kisses the back of the shot column and this alone could be enough to upset the pattern?

This is why I favour thin cards as a wad, I use fiber sure but prefere to just carry thin cards.
I have never had any pattern issues from just a few cards!
I know folk use cushion wads and thats fine but why are they called cushion wads? Are they made from old cushions or do they really believe they will cushion something?

B :thumbsup:

 

[Golfswithwolves]

I am wondering if it is possible that a thick overpowder wad might push ahead of it a "bloop" of rapidly moving air which could disturb the shot column and lead to a donut pattern. :hmm:

 

[Mercian]

I've noticed that my hit rate at clays is much greater when I wad the powder with card. If I wad with fibre my hit rate drops off markedly.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I've noticed that my hit rate at clays is much greater when I wad the powder with card. If I wad with fibre my hit rate drops off markedly.

All my best shots have been on card only wads. I use fibers sure but if I was on a special day say pheasants or wood cock or roosting pigeon I just take cards.
Bolting rabbit or pigeon over decoys i use oiled fibers.

B :hatsoff:

 

[TinStar]

Likely we could ponder all the "ifs and maybes" forever; but in the end it comes down to what works for you in your gun.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Likely we could ponder all the "ifs and maybes" forever; but in the end it comes down to what works for you in your gun.

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

Absolutly, however I do not think we should assume what happens at the muzzle of a cylinder bored muzzleloader using black powder based on photos or film about smokeless shot loads!
I did ask for clarity but alas it has not arrived....yet!

B :thumbsup: