Can't get the darn thing clean!!

[jtmattison]

I have a few frontstuffers now and the same problem exsists with them all.
I cannot get them clean to a point where the patch comes out white.
I scrub the dickens out of them with a wire bore brush and solvent, I flush them with hot soapy water and a million patches, I soak them with solvent, they don't come completely clean.
I've lapped the bore on two of them and they still don't come clean.
How can you get them completely clean?
I can run a patch with oil on it down any one of my rifles right now ant it will come out with brown on it.
Alway's brown, not black.
Could there still be some of the thick oil left in them from shipping?
I know it's not rust because these rifles are new and the brown is coming out right after shooting and cleaning.
Help!

Huntin

 

[2172]

I never got a lily white patch either, until I used some of the "Butch's Bore Bright" made by Lyman that was packed with the two Lyman's I bought...They tell you three soaked patches, run up and down the bbl each about 6-7 times and the third'll come out white. I find that most of the time, the second patch is white...with the Lyman's, I'm starting to take advantage of the hooked breech by taking the bbl off and putting the breech end in a bucket of really hot soapy water and using the patch and rod like a piston...I've also been taking the touch hole liner out, as I find the area behind that doesn't seem to get reached by the patch...
Hank

 

[roundball]

I don't think you can ever get a white patch back if you use any kind of petroleum based solvents.

How water with "diswashing detergent" will cut / leach any and all oils out of the metal because that's what it's designed to do.

That's my cleaning regimen and I don't use any petroleum based products...patches are white.

If you're fighting used barrels and you don't know what "creosote" may be in them from the previous owner, get a bottle of "Shooter's Choice Blackpowder Cleaning Gel" and follow the instructions carefully...it takes out everything, and as the instructions say, will dissolve the bore brush overnight if you don't clean it off when you're done...been there/done that!

It removed stubborn buildup for me in a used barrel I bought once, causing contineous dirty patches...the gel did the trick...white patches now just like my other barrels.

 

[robinghewitt]

Could be rust pitting. The rust lives at the bottom of the pit and extrudes rust out into the bore like toothpaste being squeezed from an everlasting tube.

Doesn't matter how many times you wipe rust off the top of the pit because the problem is at the bottom of the pit. The best you can hope to achieve from much wiping is clean rust.

Any oil you put down wets the rust at the top of the pit but it is caked in so tight it is unlikely the oil will reach the bottom and do any good.

You probably didn't want to know this ::

 

What product are you putting in the bores of these guns for long-term storage?

Are you storing the rifles in a dry place where the temperature is moderately consistent & the humidity controlled?

Are you absolutely sure the bore's rifling is completely dry when putting long-term storage products in the bore?

I only know brown-patched bores as being rusty bores. I am not familiar with any gun oils or solvents that return from the swabbed bore brown-colored.

 

[swquiro]

I have noticed that when I use very hot water to produce a dry bore after cleaning, rust, albeit superficial, forms very quickly, and patches keep coming out brown. Got to get oil down in that bore real fast after using the hot water method. I've switched to using solvent and bore brush, followed with a stiff breech brush, followed by patches till they come out clean, then put the oil to her. Generally works pretty well. Bill Slusser in Pa (717) 4864817 makes an excellent breech brush.

 

Here's a suggestion, and there are hundreds of methods for cleaning the things, find the one that works for you.
Quit using HOT water. Use cold water and dish detergent, Simple Green, whatever. Dry well, THEN use a 91% alcohol patch 'er 2 'er 3. The alcohol absorbs any moisture left in the bore, then oil. This should work well.

 

[cayugad]

You want to hear something stranger, I used to get that same effect "sometimes." Not all the times mind you. I am trying to think of the season of the year it was more common and I think it was summer. I could never figure it out other then humidity in the air. I clean the rifles the same way each and every time, especially since I was advised of the Birchwood Casey line of products.

When I clean the barrels now, I still use a HOT water soap bath, then a HOT water without soap rinse. After that it is some bore brushing with a solvent covered brush, then I run patches of Birchwood Casey Bore Scrubber down it and they come out clean on about the second or third patch. The a "very light patch" of Birchwood Casey Sheath, and I have not had any problems since.

The other thing I have been doing is running a very thick cleaning patch with Bore Scrubber through the barrel. My reasoning is that this will get into the rifling better.

 

[Ohio Joe]

There's not a lot I can add here except to echo that you must have your bore dry after cleaning before you oil it. I clean with all sorts of concoctions, but they're all water based, hot and cold both... I too use the sheath oil after the bore is dry and have never had a problem with the brown stuff. I also have muzzleloaders I haven't shot in years, but I'll run a sheath oil patch down them every six months and they are as clean as when I stored them. No rust...

 

Gotta side with Maxi.

Don't use "Hot" water,think "baby bath" temps. with Trad ml's we'er dealing with a softer steel. Really hot water leads to faster cooling temps and easier reaches of the "dew" point.( the temperature point ambiant atmosphereic moisture condenses)( I don't care if yer in Arizona or Maine,winter or summer,Hot water and cold steel is gonna lead ya to the "dew" point).
If you use Hot water and get "rust" colored patches your doing the job right. What your getting is called "flash" rust. It's just clean iron re-acting too the water in the air around ya. That's a good thing,,ya got it clean. Now oil the bore, put the gun away,,but the next day,swab the bore again with an oil patch. Or just don't use Hot water.
Rubbing alcohol swabs or flush really helps get the moisture out fast. Gee it might even cool it down a bit.
That goofey alcohol! Mixes with water, and mixes with oil too! Hhhmm? darn stuff,,,,,,,,,
Apple pie anyone???
Now, if ya oil the bore,,be damn sure ya clean all the oil out before ya shoot BP in it.And the snail,,and the nip! awh heck,,good luck,,it ain't really that tough,,,,,

 

[robinghewitt]

What product are you putting in the bores of these guns for long-term storage?

Colonel Hawker recommends you fill the barrels of your duck gun with fat before putting it away after the season.

This may be a bit extreme ::

 

[sneakon]

Well, I have had trouble with a tight barrel and have tried to clean suspected fouling by lapping with JB paste as recommended on this forum. Every JB patch came out black. Tried soaking with Shooters Choice lead remover, lapping with a brush and patch, followed by another try with the JB paste. The patch on the brush was clean, but the JB patch still came out black after 5 or so laps. Without the JB, cleaning patches come out clean and white. Hope to get to the range this weekend and see how smooth the loading goes. What results have others had with JB paste? Sure looks glassy smooth down my barrel now.

 

[cayugad]

When I use the J.B. Bore Paste every patch comes out black. I think that is the paste itself and what it is pulling off the barrel. I really do not think that is dirt your seeing from the bore paste. After I have ran a couple of the JB Bore patches, I give it a quick water bath and then a few solvent patches and they come out clean as a whistle. Just be sure to put a good quality teflon based oil like REM OIL in the barrel after using any paste or compound because you have really opened up the metal inside the barrel and you need to recoat that with a good oil or it will rust.

 

JB is great stuff. Used if for years, on modern centerfires, .22 rimfires and muzzle loaders. Your JB patches will ALWAYS come out dark. Part of the discoloration is from the barrel steel itself.
In spite of what some think you CAN over lap with the stuff, but it would take a LOT of effort to remove enough metal to hurt anything.
It is after all an abrasive compound, though very fine, it's still an abrasive and should not be used to clean the barrel after every range season. It's best for smoothing up a slightly rough barrel and removing heavy copper deposits.
There is some specutation you can get a muzzle loader bareel too smooth particularly a round ball gun. I don't know of this is true or not.
It times gone by some smiths would actually use vinegar or other mild acids to roughen the bore. The idea being that a SLIGHTLY rough bore "grabs" the lubed patch better.
May an old untrue premise.
Don't know.

 

[buckknife]

I will try to put this as an example.say your barrel is a cribbage board.The holes the pegs go in could be the microscopic pores in the bore.Now fill them holes in the cribbage board with mud an take a rag an try an wipe em out.It cant be done really.
When you shoot fouling is forced in these pores,you can rub water over em but it wont completly come out and now you have water mixed with the fouling.Now you can rub bees wax or parifan over em to seal them from getting air so it wont rust or you can mix the fouling an water with a petroulem oil that will either displace it or mix with it.

rubbing alkey does work well but you can get by without it,just make sure you run a sloppy oil patch to displace the water or mix into it an then run another right after.And always check the bore the next day.
Breek free clp works wonder full in a muzzle loader bore,just remove it before you shoot,either with alkey or a non-chlorinated brake cleaner,which is mostly acetone.
I do belive it is the real mirical lube for protecting a bore,black powder or smokeless.
Tacks,apple pie ::we cant be wasten that stuff on a fronttstuffer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[riarcher]

Hmmm,
My cribage board is more like a cast iron skillet.
I feel that petroleum doesn't mix well with water and would rather float than displace. If anything the oil would seal the water into the pores (everyone has a theory :cry: mine's probably wrong too :shocking
Anyways, back to this "skillet" thing. A good skillet gets seasoned right off the bat. Wash with hot water and (help) keep warm to induce drying. Then seal against oxidation. I seal using the controversal Bore Butter. I lay it in heavy and quite warm (almost runny). I know, it's a terrible system :shake: , but it works for me.
No soaps, no oils, just plain and simple and my patches are clean when done, and clean when I swab before loading. And the first shot groups within a 1/2 inch of the follow-ups at 50 yds. (the real reason for my method :: )

 

You guys is all screwed up! Cribage boards,and cast iron skillets! :nono:
WE are talking gun barrels, not board games or cooking utensiles, but I gotta admit I see what you are saying what with the micro-pores and all.

RIARCHER: you are dead on the money (IMHO) about the Bore Butter seasoning thing. I am convinced, can't prove it, but convinced that "seasoning" the bore does help reduce fouling build up and does aid in making clean up more thorough and easier.
When I was hot water cleaning I'd actually put what barrels would fit in the kitchen oven at 170 degrees and heat them up. This of course drove out ALL water, I'd then drown the bore in Bore Butter, outside metal also, while the metal was still hot, and NEVER, even after a year of storage, did I have a speck of corrosion. Clean up was alsways much easier. I believe Stumpy's Moose Snot would make an excellent bore conditioner.

Remember I have shot #21 in the bore of a T/C barrel with NO swabbing and NO cleaning whatever using Stumpy's goop only and there is NO rust and loading is still easy.
I firmly believe bore contioning with Bore Butter, Stumpy's Stuff, or products of that ilk are worth while, even smart. ::
Cribage anyone? :blah: :blah:
By the way, NOTHING is better to cook in than a properly season cast iron pan! :applause:

 

[roundball]

RIARCHER & MAXIBALL...you guys are "preachin to the choir", couldn't agree more...just back from this morning's range trip...40 shots with 60grns Goex FFFg, Hornady .530's, and .015 cotton patches prelubed with natural lube 1000...never wiped the bore until I was done and getting ready for the drive home...the barrel is soaking in a large pail of steaming hot soapy water right now...love shootin' these flintlocks !!

 

[buckknife]

Borebutter is a petroluem wax.It was analized by the Mad Monk.I belive he refered to it as chap stick. :blah:
Now when you talk about seasoning a a frying pan how many people do it with wax?
You do it with cooking oil or lard,dont remember using wax in the skillet.
Now i dont care what you use to protect your bore,what every out a hunten is usen isnt worken if he is pulling brown.Im trying to give him an idea of where the brown comes from an how to get rid of it.
Now quit picken on me or im going to hid under my bed an i aint comen out till supper time :cry: :cry:

 

[robinghewitt]

We all know that what we use for lube, be it spit patch or scrapings from the backside of the Tibetan pot bellied llama, is the only lube worth using.

Trouble is the world isn't interested. Most people find the first thing that puts holes in the X ring and never change again. Why should they?

Telling everyone they are "all screwed up" for not using your personal favorite isn't exactly going to get people's attention, you have to start with a few card tricks, offer free beer, something like that.