Can't sight in round balls at all!

[coromis1978]

Hello all,

This is my first post, but I have been lurking for a long time and really appreciate all of the expertise found on this forum.

I recently acquired my first ever muzzleloader. It is a .50 cal TC Hawken (serial 216xxx) percussion cap. Having no experience at all with these things, I read everything that I could find before I finally went out to try to sight it in today. These are my specs for today's experiments.

1. 320 grain maxiballs
2. 80 grain Pyrodex rs FFG

Results were successful . 2 inch groups at 65 yards from bench, 4 inch groups offhanded


1. Hornady Blackpowder .490 Round Lead Ball
2. range of 50-80 grain Pyrodex rs FFG
3. CVA prelubed .015 patch

Results.....I never hit the target board..much less the paper...NOT ONE TIME In 15 shots..

In my frustration I just focused on the Maxiballs for consistency so I can hunt them in two weeks.

Please, someone tell me what cheezy , stupid thing I am doing.

Should the sighting be that different between the two loads? If a gun is setup with a dialed in sight line for maxiballs, will it not work for RLB's?


Any insight would be much appreciated.

C

 

[rodwha]

I have a .50 cal Deerstalker that I've been using .490" RBs with .015" patches with a 70 grn charge of Pyrodex (P/RS). Knowing I'd want a zero around 75-80 yds I adjusted the sights a little to be a bit over the bull at 50 yds.

I recently bought some 320 grn REALs and had to give em a go. First I shot my typical load, but using 70 grns of 3F Triple 7 and my shots were high as usual, though a little higher.

Then I shot a few REALs with the same load. My first shot was waaaay left and seemed to keyhole. I dropped a felt wad before the next two and they both hit right next to each other and about at POA. It seemed to defy logic, but they hit much lower on the target. If that is the case maybe your PRBs went over?

 

[rafterob]

The load for the maxi and round balls will be different and don't expect to get it down in one day. Since you plan on hunting with it in a couple weeks probably stick with the maxi. When you come back to round balls start at a shorter distance like 25 yards. Find the load that gives you the best group and then move out the distance.

 

[ian45662]

Start off close maybe 15 or 20 yards and see what happens. Do you know what the twist is?

 

[fearless51]

Cory, I'm new to this site and certainly no expert at all things black powder. One thing to consider is what twist your rifling is, whether its 1:45 or 1:60. This is related to the number of rotations the ball will make in a given distance. A one in forty-five twist barrel will in theory rotate the ball once in forty-five inches, a barrel with that twist should be able to make a maxi-ball perform well but will not work great with a patch/ball combination. I shoot patch ball rifles and like to see a twist of 1:60 or better, a rifle with that twist rate is a prime candidate for cutting paper targets or accurately dropping a deer with a well placed shot. I don't see any benefit to using a maxi ball but do understand how so many people have used them to great success. That situation is about all I could think of that would show such a difference in the way your rifle shoots. I would suggest trying a larger target background and working at a much closer range, say 25 yards.
With a faster pitch rifle you can feel the ramrod twisting in your hand while you push and pull it, with a slow pitch it will barely turn about half the diameter in a normal 30" barrel. There are methods to determine exactly what the twist is that involve the length of your barrel and how many degrees of rotation you get in one foot. I usually just run a firm patch down the barrel and if I feel that rod twisting in my hand I can tell if its a fast or slow twist, I think some of the dedicated sabot shooting guns have an even faster pitch of 1:25, a patched round ball out of one of those is gonna be like a knuckleball, your better off with a nice smoothbore. Maybe they'll come up with a round ball thats designed like a golf ball with dimples in it for guys that shoot them things.

 

[mooman76]

Look for your patches after you shoot. My guess is with as bad as you were doing they will be shreaded. Fired patches will tell you allot and prelubed patches if too old start to break down and loose their strength. Try up closer like stated.

 

[Roguedog]

One thing I have found with Thompson Center barrels is that due to their shallow rifling, a tighter than average ball/patch combo is required to get the best out of them. This is my experience. Also, if your grouping with a heavy maxiball, don't expect the lighter roundball to be in the neighborhood. As has been suggested, due to this late in the game, you may be well served to stick with the maxiballs. They will sure do the job on deer. When you get ready to try to sight in your gun for roundballs, you would benefit by getting a few different thicknesses of patches to see which one your gun prefers. Also, recover your shot patches. They will tell you much about what is going on inside your bore. Your patches after being shot should almost look good enough to reuse. If not, you have issues that need to be addressed. Most importantly, shooting blackpowder guns is fun, but it does take time sometimes to get all the kinks worked out. Try and enjoy the process.

Jeff

 

[Wes/Tex]

Roguedog is on to the right turn here. The TC rifles do require a pretty tight fit with patch and ball because of the shallow rifling, as he stated. This was done so the rifles could shoot both patched balls and Maxis. You will probably need to find a thicker patch material and some have had trouble in the past with the pre-lubed patches because of the age of the product, since some outlets have their patches in storage for months or years before they're purchased. A thicker linen material will probably make an improvement. With your hunting season coming up soon, you'd do best to go with what you're comfortable with and is accurate in your rifle. Good luck with your hunt and next sight-in adventures!

 

[Dphar]

I would find some blackpowder. Propellant may be the problem
Next is any number of things.
If the crown is too sharp it can cut the patches on loading.
Could be the patches are too thin for a 490 ball.
If you cannot hit the back stop there is a fundamental problem. Like the rifling being to shallow or its got a twist faster than is usable like a 28 or something.
If it has shallow rifling then 490s are not going work with a .015 patch. Probably need .495s. Could be the patch material is so rotten or week that its not up to the forces involved.
The rifle might not like the lube. The bore might be leaded from the Maxi-Balls. I would recommend you find a different bullet for hunting if you insist on using naked bullets. Also be aware that naked bullets can and do move off the powder if the muzzle is depressed and the rifle is jiggled. Like it was being carried.
So I would find a box of .495 balls. I would go to the fabric store and buy some 9 ounce denim, color is uniportant so long as its very hard or impossible to tear. I would lube it with Pure Neatsfoot oil or spit. Do not use spit with Pyrodex. I would make or buy a short starter. I would then find some real blackpowder. If you keep shooting the other stuff you will eventually wish you had not.

Start with 75 gr of FFF Goex or Swiss or Schuetzen, avoid the re-enactor grade junk. Go up to 90 or so. If Swiss start at 60-65 its stronger than the others and a little less 10% or so will give as good a velocity.

Dan

 

[Zonie]

I'm betting you didn't find any of your shot patches when you were shooting the roundballs.

You say you were using CVA prelubed patches?
I don't think CVA has made those for years and pre lubed patches get weak after sitting on a shelf for a long time.

Try to find some unlubricated patches next time.

You can lube them with one of the commercial lubes like Bore Butter or even spit. (Yes, it does work if it doesn't stay in the barrel for a long time).

After you've taken a few shots, find your shot patches.

If they are ripped or torn, that is the problem.

If they are just frayed around the edges you should see your groups decrease to a few inches or less.

 

[George T.]

I think others here are right. In my T/C I use .018 patches and find Ox-Yoke the best!

Geo. T.

 

[coromis1978]

Wow.. you guys are fast! and full of useful information.

I believe that my TC Hawken has a 1/48 twist which is supposed to be a compromise in twist rate that allows for both RB and Conical..but is not stellar at either one.

I found no patches, but my buddy and I did look for them and had no luck. So, they were destroyed? And that is indicative of too loose a fit in a shallow rifled barrel?

I will continue to work what I have going on with the Maxi-Balls. Till I have some meat in the freeze...I have to tell you that I had so much fun yesterday that I would love to just hunt with this all season!....

But, I really am hankerin' to get the round balls going on this thing..so maybe...I should get another rifle just for that!! :grin:

Thank you again for your time and expertise...if any of you are near West Tennessee, I would love to hangout and learn some stuff!

 

[VEARL]

Your barrel has a 1 in 48 twist. Suppose to be able to shoot both conical and round balls. Some T.C.'s do and some don't. Mine don't.
I shoot a 80 gr load of 2F BP with a O/P Wad. A lubed .018 patch with a .490 RB.
Mine is currently sighted in at 50 yds.( 3 inch group). After deer season, I am planning on getting it sighted for 75 yds.
You might want to check your patches for any that may be burnt or cut after shooting them.

 

[silly goose]

Far too many people have been satisfied with their T/C and roundball to discout that rifle. The last Renegade I had would shoot cloverleaf's at 50 yards with Hornady .490 balls, prelubed .018 patches, and 80gr ffg. A pretty standard load. I only shot at 100 yards one time. 4 shots into 4". May not be something to brag about to some, but certainly deer capable.

I never had a problem with the prelubed patches, but I now enjoy making my own. I did find that prelubed patches never mic'd what they said they were, always a bit thinner.

Don't give up on that rifle, but also don't let that stop you from buying another one. :wink:

 

[fleener]

you did not tell us where you were missing. Really need to know that before we can give accurate help. Were your shoots off of the paper a good group? If you don't know, you really need to know that before you start making other changes.

I suggest you start at 15-25 yards with a big target and just see what is going on. If you are shooting high, with a good group, you know that a simple powder reduction might be all that is needed, or you might just simply change how you use your sights for round ball vs. a conical.

do a little more work and get more info, so at least your changes are based on some facts.

Fleener

 

[Patocazador]

Go to a fabric store with a micrometer or calipers and measure the thickness of their pillow ticking. Around here the salespeople just give me a blank stare when I say "ticking." It's blue striped usually like my avatar at left. Buy a piece of the two thickest ones that are at least .018" and cut out some patches with scissors at first. Lube with mink oil, bore butter, moose milk or spit. You should have a tough time seating the ball for the tightest fit.

Your groups should improve.

 

[tom deinek]

Just read a post by an OLD-timer who uses red patching so he can find his spent patches.

Good idea if you can find that kind of material.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Re-read the posts by Dan and Zonie. The answer is in those as well as others.
My first thought was you need a tighter ball/patch combo. And now we have learned you need a better patch cloth and another lube.
As suggested, try a (washed) ticking, .495 ball and better lube. As much as I hate commercial lubes, for a beginner, get something like Bore Butter to start.
That 1:48" twist will serve you well with a prb.
And, yes, do get some real black powder.

 

[mooman76]

If in fact your patches were destroyed it can mean several things. Too thin, weak material if cut up sharp crown or lands. The later is associated more with a new gun and will wear smoother after shooting it more. When you change things don't change too many at once or you won't know what the real problem was.

 

[Billnpatti]

I shall be succinct. http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

Buy it. Follow it exactly. Your problems will be solved. You will be amazed. Absolutely no better way to spend $20 on muzzleloading. And you can take that to the bank.