as some of the others have already said, it sounds like your pre-lube patches are probably getting blown to heck. try some pillow ticking or #40 cotton drill, and some real BP. while i'm not condemning pyrodex in any way, my experience with it has been less than savory. if there is any degradation of your patch material, or patch/ball fit isn't good, pyrodex seems to accentuate the problem (i.e. burnt or blown patches = terrible accuracy) again, this is just from my own personal experience. good luck, and make lotsa smoke :thumbsup:
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Can't sight in round balls at all!
- Thread starter coromis1978
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awebbersr
40 Cal.
It might save some time to take a caliper to the bore of the barrel. Example: my 54 measures .547, I use .018 patch w/.530 ball for .548, works fine. :grin:
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Billnpatti said:
+1 !!
as an aside, I would suspect a patching problem, since you can't find them. and since you can't find them, it's impossible to confirm or discard a problem.
i'm partial to real blackpowder out of necessity - I shoot flint in all my long guns, and I only use what's left of my Pyrodex in my revolver. it can be a pain in the neck to get, but the effort is well worth the hassle, IMO.
Good luck, and make good smoke!
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coromis1978
32 Cal.
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Thank you all for the helpful insight. I will get the book' and follow it.
Also, it may take me a spell...but I promise to follow up with results.
C
Also, it may take me a spell...but I promise to follow up with results.
C
You probably just got a couple of hundred years experience in that thread! The problem isn't the rifle, it's the fact that newcomers think that because these firearms are old then the loading procedures must be rough and rudimentary too, but what surprises me the most is just how finicky they are. You have to get everything just right then stick to it. That includes powder, projectiles, patches, lubes and even cleaning procedures. It may be helpful to pour some boiling water down that barrel and give it a good scrub after shooting maxis to get rid of any lead out of the lands. I think some even use carburettor cleaner.
I think everyone starting in muzzleloading needs a mentor. I am shooting a similar rifle to yours and just to give you an idea, I use 100gn ffg to get my maxis on the bull, but only 60gn ffg to get the roundballs to print next to them, so maybe your roundballs are too high?
If I was you, I'd get some pre-lubed patches 0.018 from Track of the Wolf and start with them and try both 0.490 balls and 0.495 balls to see which shoots the straightest, starting at 25 yards. You want those balls to be tight when you start them. Also try a wonderwad between your powder and maxis and you might find your groups shrink with them too. Stick with black powder. You guys are blessed with the availability of Goex. Don't take it for granted. Use it!
You'll have that thing shooting straight in no time. There is a hunting section on the forum. Hope to see you there in a few weeks.
I think everyone starting in muzzleloading needs a mentor. I am shooting a similar rifle to yours and just to give you an idea, I use 100gn ffg to get my maxis on the bull, but only 60gn ffg to get the roundballs to print next to them, so maybe your roundballs are too high?
If I was you, I'd get some pre-lubed patches 0.018 from Track of the Wolf and start with them and try both 0.490 balls and 0.495 balls to see which shoots the straightest, starting at 25 yards. You want those balls to be tight when you start them. Also try a wonderwad between your powder and maxis and you might find your groups shrink with them too. Stick with black powder. You guys are blessed with the availability of Goex. Don't take it for granted. Use it!
You'll have that thing shooting straight in no time. There is a hunting section on the forum. Hope to see you there in a few weeks.
Another thing you might try is the old 13 yard quick sight-in method. Briefly, a PRB at most hunting velocities will have a trajectory that's pretty close to being 1 inch high at 50 yards and 1 inch low at 100 yards when sighted to hit dead center at 13 yards. This will, obviously, not fix the problem but can at least give you an idea about where the ball is going since you weren't even hitting the paper originally. This method only gets you on paper more easily than shooting at 100 yards.
galamb
58 Cal.
I have read lot's of replies here about patches etc, am I missing something or has nobody noted that he went from shooting 320 grain conicals to 180'ish grain round balls without touching the sights.
Those RB's probably sailed so far over the top of the target they may be still going.
As suggested, get a big target and start out with way shorter yardage - like 15 or 20 and aim "low".
Those RB's probably sailed so far over the top of the target they may be still going.
As suggested, get a big target and start out with way shorter yardage - like 15 or 20 and aim "low".
We noted that but he didn't state what size target and backdrop he was using so I think we were giving him credit for knowing there would be some difference.
galamb
58 Cal.
I didn't make that assumption.
He stated this was his first muzzle loader and had only shot the conicals to date.
If he was only used to center fires then say going from 150 gr to 180 gr shells may not make much of a difference at short range.
But in this case he dropped his bullet weight by almost half which probably increased his muzzle velocity by maybe 300 fps (or 20%) with his sights still set to lauch an "artillery round" down range.
He stated this was his first muzzle loader and had only shot the conicals to date.
If he was only used to center fires then say going from 150 gr to 180 gr shells may not make much of a difference at short range.
But in this case he dropped his bullet weight by almost half which probably increased his muzzle velocity by maybe 300 fps (or 20%) with his sights still set to lauch an "artillery round" down range.
I'm on the other end of the state so can't hang out with ya.All the advice here is good and should be considered!!!! I'll tell ya this I have 10+ TC's with their shallow grooved barrels.Most are 1/48 twists and all will shoot PRB very accurately so,,,don't give up.All my 50's shoot well some. better than others with 70/80gr goex ffg felt wad over powder,490 hand cast ball and .018 ticking lubed with beeswax olive oil lubes I make.Use the conicals this year then work up PRB loads it'll shoot them when the correct load is found. :thumbsup:
Gene Obenshain
Pilgrim
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I am dealing with the same issue, I picked up a TC Hawken and took it to our range, loaded with 60 gr. FFF. It would not group for beans, The barrel's crown is good, I tried wiping between shots, not wiping, different lubes, this was with ticking,and a tight fit, The patches were burned so bad they looked like black spiders. So I started backing the load down ,when I got to 50 Gr. the patches looked better where they meet the rifling but were burnt under the ball. I got to 45 Grs and the groups tightened up and the patches looked perfect, I am going to keep experimenting.
galamb
58 Cal.
I wasn't trying to discount the importance of patch, lube, load etc. All are vital to tighten your group up - you are looking for as accurate a load as you can get.
But in this case the shooter can't even get the round balls on the target - until that happens the patch/lube/load is of little consequence.
At this point it's almost certainly a sighting issue.
It's one thing if he couldn't get less than an 8" group, it's quite another to get zero of 15 balls "anywhere" on a target...
But in this case the shooter can't even get the round balls on the target - until that happens the patch/lube/load is of little consequence.
At this point it's almost certainly a sighting issue.
It's one thing if he couldn't get less than an 8" group, it's quite another to get zero of 15 balls "anywhere" on a target...
galamb,
it is quite possible that patches blowing apart are causing the balls to miss the target completely. I ran into the same problem with a friends rifle. it would shoot conicals just fine, but it would destroy patches and would not put a ball on paper, which was a 4'x 4' piece of cardboard. we wound up using some thick (.035") cotton twill fabric for patching which solved the problem. :2
it is quite possible that patches blowing apart are causing the balls to miss the target completely. I ran into the same problem with a friends rifle. it would shoot conicals just fine, but it would destroy patches and would not put a ball on paper, which was a 4'x 4' piece of cardboard. we wound up using some thick (.035") cotton twill fabric for patching which solved the problem. :2
daniel collums
45 Cal.
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All my t/c rifles except my white mountain carbine shoot prb's perfect but only after i started using the mink oil. The prb's and the real bullets hit the target at 45 yards almost in the same holes without any site adjustment.If your rifle is clean and not leaded get a few different size patches, some mink oil, and seat the ball without pounding on it and seat it the same every time. Most of the time the tightest patch/ball you can get down the barrel without fighting it will be the best. If you don't try anything else just get the mink oil, you wont regret it.
The original poster has not come back to give an update. We are just guessing and can't help him until he participates.
I still think he was shivering. :haha:
I still think he was shivering. :haha:
coromis1978
32 Cal.
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My package from Dutch Schoultz came in yesterday. I will read, and get to it...but probably not until after muzzleloading season here in TN.
When I get some headway on the roundball, I will update you all.
Thanks again for all of your insight.
C
When I get some headway on the roundball, I will update you all.
Thanks again for all of your insight.
C
bubba15301
40 Cal.
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Try a wad between the rb and powder
ravenousfishing
40 Cal.
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White poster board with a black aim point in the center is taylor made for working up new loads etc while still being managable. Usually at 50 yds, the black holes stand out quite easily, and only the truly erratic shots miss the paper.
coromis1978
32 Cal.
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It has almost been a year..but I want you all to know that I made some real headway..
Last year I hunted with the conicals...and the only shot I had was ruined by a bad cap...well not so much the cap as the 9 yr old in the stand with me that went nuts wailing "NOOO" and shaking his hands at the "click" that spooked the doe..so I got skunked during Muzzleloader season.
But I read the stuff from Dutch and read it again at various times over the year. I began to get the ideas worked out in my head and over the last few weeks I have been getting my materials worked out (patch material and lube..and .490 and .495 balls)
Today I was able to get out with the Hawken and make the switch from the conicals to the PRB's.. and after a few hours and about 35 shots or so...I am in for this season.
I can consistently hit 3-4 inch groupings offhand and propped on stand rail at 100 yards. Where I hunt, that is about all I can see anyway.
I was wayyy high like galamb suggested...so I lowered my sights to the lowest and worked my way up..when I took 20 yard shots , I was able to see it..so I tweaked up from there with the same load.
so I ended up with 65 grains of the pyrodex and the .490 and some pillow ticking from Hancocks. I ended up using the TC lube on the patches. I noticed last year that if you left it in the sun, it melted in the tube. So this year, when I was making patches, I had difficulty finding some the the stuff for the moose milk recipe Dutch Suggested. I ordered some stuff online, but it wasn't here today. So, I melted some of the TC lube in the microwave and impregnated some of the ticking patches. While I will end up coming back to that aspect in the future...I am super pleased with how today went. I just really need to get some bright paint on that front sight! Sheeesh..
So, thanks again for all of your input and your support. This is the first time that I have ever participated in a forum like this because I tend to not be a joiner..but man, you guys were great and I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate it and to let you know how things worked out so far.
Cheers!
C
Last year I hunted with the conicals...and the only shot I had was ruined by a bad cap...well not so much the cap as the 9 yr old in the stand with me that went nuts wailing "NOOO" and shaking his hands at the "click" that spooked the doe..so I got skunked during Muzzleloader season.
But I read the stuff from Dutch and read it again at various times over the year. I began to get the ideas worked out in my head and over the last few weeks I have been getting my materials worked out (patch material and lube..and .490 and .495 balls)
Today I was able to get out with the Hawken and make the switch from the conicals to the PRB's.. and after a few hours and about 35 shots or so...I am in for this season.
I can consistently hit 3-4 inch groupings offhand and propped on stand rail at 100 yards. Where I hunt, that is about all I can see anyway.
I was wayyy high like galamb suggested...so I lowered my sights to the lowest and worked my way up..when I took 20 yard shots , I was able to see it..so I tweaked up from there with the same load.
so I ended up with 65 grains of the pyrodex and the .490 and some pillow ticking from Hancocks. I ended up using the TC lube on the patches. I noticed last year that if you left it in the sun, it melted in the tube. So this year, when I was making patches, I had difficulty finding some the the stuff for the moose milk recipe Dutch Suggested. I ordered some stuff online, but it wasn't here today. So, I melted some of the TC lube in the microwave and impregnated some of the ticking patches. While I will end up coming back to that aspect in the future...I am super pleased with how today went. I just really need to get some bright paint on that front sight! Sheeesh..
So, thanks again for all of your input and your support. This is the first time that I have ever participated in a forum like this because I tend to not be a joiner..but man, you guys were great and I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate it and to let you know how things worked out so far.
Cheers!
C
