Cause of misfire?

[pmwest]

While hunting this past weekend a good friend was using a T/C caplock that misfired, three times at the same eight point buck within a matter of a few minutes. The deer was so confused, or maybe laughing too hard that he did not run away. I guess he was waiting to see what would happen next. My friend has now earned the nickname, Cappy. During lunch, I took the rifle from him and fired it. Ignition was slow, not instantaneous as it usually is with this gun. We shoot together frequently, several times a month, so I am very familiar with the rifle and its capabilities. I also fired several caps, pulled and examined the nipple and looked for anything that might cause a problem. I found that there was significant primer fouling around the base of the nipple in the snail. More so than normal. I also found that the hammer screw was loose and there was considerable movement of the hammer at half and full cock. I concluded that the ignition of the cap blew the cap and hammer back off of the nipple not allowing enough heat to reach the main charge (pyrodex) to ignite it. The fouling in the snail seems to indicate that most of the primer fire was outside of the nipple, not going through it. Anyone seen this happen before? All observations, theories or suppositions are welcome.

I tightened the screw and it seems to work fine now but I won’t know for sure unless he gets over the embarrassment and returns to camp.

 

[crockett]

Couple of ideas. Some barrels have a coned breech and the shooter uses a square faced scrapper that doesn't get out all the fouling. So that may be a problem.
IMHO the delayed fire is often an inability for the flash of the cap to hit the powder charge, the crud blocking the passage burns through. If any part of the flame reached the powder there should have been an immediate ignition.
Finally, the drum can be vented but I don't know how you could do that with a snail type set up.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Since you mentioned that "All observations, theories or suppositions are welcome," I'll offer a comment that might deal with the fouling under the nipple. I'd wager that if your friend shot a group with Swiss 3fg or even Goex 3fg, he would never go back to Pyrodex. Whether it would lessen the fouling only experimenting will tell. Just MHO
Regards,
Pletch

 

I think you got the problem solved by tightening the hammer. Good diagnosis as far as I can see. Real Black powder will help ignition though or hotter primers.
Bill

 

[Landngroove]

Before loading the ML, did your friend wipe the bore of all oil residue, and snap off a few percussion caps to dry the nipple/breach area? If you have to use Pyrodex, try CCI magnum # 11 caps, or go to a musket cap.

 

[Rebel]

Also be sure to remove spent cap and put hammer on half cock so that some powder can get through to the nipple when seating a ball.

 

[Zonie]

Several thoughts and suggestions:

I'm not too clear on whether your friend's mis-fires were due to the cap not firing or the charge not firing.
The following assumes the cap popped but the gun didn't fire.

If the nipple's hole is blocked, it would cause a restriction on the caps flame. Your friend should run a wire down thru the nipple to make sure it is clear of fouling.

When loading, the nipple should be uncapped and the hammer should be at half cock. This keeps the nipple hole clear so air can blow out of it freely when ramming the ball.
The purpose of having the air blow out is that it also blows powder back up the flash hole towards the base of the nipple. The closer the powder is to the nipple, the greater the reliability of the ignition will be.
This is especially important when loading modern replica powders which need almost twice as much heat to ignite as real black powder does.

Although it's a pain to do, when hunting, when the first pull of the trigger must fire the gun it is a good idea to remove the nipple and pour a tiny bit of loose powder down into the flash hole, then replace the nipple just prior to loading the powder and ball. This guarantees ignition from even the smallest cap flame.

Nothing against your friend but the excess primer fouling you saw around the base of the nipple indicates to me that your friend didn't clean the gun very well the last time he shot it.
Assuming he didn't clean it well says there may have been quite a lot of fouling in the flame channel between the nipple and the bore.
If this is true, and he oiled the bore, the oil would tend to soak into the fouling in the flame channel. This oil would leach out into the powder that had found it's way into the channel.
Oil soaked powder (of any kind) is dam hard to get to ignite which could explain why it had a delayed ignition when you shot it.

If the cap's didn't fire, I would say you found the cause when you found the loose hammer.

Good luck to the both of you on your next hunt.

zonie

 

[tx50cal]

Tell him to soak ihe breech end of the barrel in very hot water for an hour or so then use a pipe cleaner and clean the crud out of the flash channel. The charge WILL NOT ignite if the flame from the cap can't reach the charge. It will take some work but if the fire channel is clean you should get good ignition also take a .35-36 cal bore brush and clean the patent brech area in the breech plug. Take it slow so that the brush doesn't get stuck. It ound like there is a build up of fouling in the fire channel. Hope this helps.
Rob

 

[paulvallandigham]

I would be willing to bet a little money that your friend did not run alcohol through that breech and nipple to dissolve any oil that might have gathered in the nipple and flash channel while the gun was leaning against a rack somewhere these past months. He has to clean and clearn that nipple before each hunt, by removing the nipple, soaking it in alcohol, running a wire down it from both ends and then looking through the oriface to see if he can see daylight and no obstructions. Do the same using a pipe cleaner and alcohol or gun solvents to clear the flash channel and dry them. If you use alcohol, the alcohol will evaporate after it has done its job. The pipe clean will absorb any oils and grease residues dissolved by the alcohol and remove it from the gun.

Your friend has to develop some habits in cleaning his guns every time he does so. The last thing on the list is to use a good set of screw drivers, with blades designed to fit gun screwhead slots, to check to see that every screw is in the right position and has not loosened in recoil during shooting. If a screw seems to be a chronic offender, get some lock tight, ladies nail polish( lacquer) lacquer, or shellac, and caub the threads of the screw before placing them back on the gun. once the stuff dries that should keep the screws from turning out without using a screw driver to break the seals. BUT< check the screws after every shooting seesion, and even after every hunting trip. You never know if bouncing around in your car or truck migh also loosen screws, too.

If you tighten down all the screws, and oil everything properly, after cleaning, you know the gun will function mechanically correct the next time you pick it up. Clean and oil guns monthly, or more often if you live in a moist climate, or near the sea where salt air gets in everything, and it will not fail to fire the next time you want to use it. Can he imagine what he would feel like if instead of missing a laughing deer, he was a cop needing his gun to save his life, or the life of his partner, or some innocent civilian, and it didn't fire? Those things also happen. Your buddy is lucky he learns this lesson when it really doesn't matter much. He at least has a good " The-one-that-got-away-" Story to share with friends.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Yeah, the old slow bang story. Clean flash channel well and when you dump powder whack the breech area couple times with palm of your hand to jar some grains into drum. give it a try, it works.

 

[grant]

You didn't say, Did somebody get the deer?!

 

[Smokin6Gun]

Did you fire a cap thru it before loading? Always a good idea to hold it close to the dirt and fire a cap to see the nipple is cleared. Carry a nipple picka also...

 

[paulvallandigham]

Smoking Gun's suggestion is always a good one, but in this case, it may not have made a difference if the flash channel and nipple orifice was already blocked with congealed oil and grease. That is why a good thorough cleaning with alcohol is needed. Firing a cap is a good way to remove the light oil in the bore, or chamber, after a cleaning patch with solvent, or alcohol is run down the barrel.

Always check the nipple before putting each cap on to see that it is not showing debris. When in doubt, run that wire down. Yes, it takes time, and you don't want to have to do that when you are hunting, but the gun and nipple should be stone clean for that first shot, eleviating the need to use the wire then. Considering the variety of weather you can experience in a day of hunting, be prepared to use that wire before firing the second shot! Don't leave it at home, or in the truck, or car. I have a TC nipple wrench with a wire in it, that goes in my possibles bag. I also have a wire in the base of my Tingle made Adjustable powder measure with attached funnel. Both have been used in the field, before I changed over to CCI caps. since then, I have not had problems, although I am told that other shooters do. I bought 1000 primers from a dealer at Friendship many years ago, and am still working through the last of them. Perhaps the new caps have changed. I don't shoot my percussion shotgun as much as I used to shoot my percussion rifle, hence the time its taking to go through those caps.

 

[pmwest]

All very good comments and advice on how to cure the problem. The caps did go off, but not the main charge. I can assure you that the gun was clean and oil free. Three caps fired prior to loading to verify flash channel was clear and clean. The nipple was removed and a pipe cleaner run through the channel and the nipple checked for debris. The only issue that I could find with the gun was the loose hammer. This gun does not see extended storage, it was fired and cleaned three days before this occurred. The patent breech was cleaned with a breech brush. Yes, I have tried to convert him to Goex but his argument is that if he shoots Pyrodex, when he runs out he can get it from any Wal-mart. He did not carry or use a nipple pick, but he has one now! :winking:

As far as the buck was concerned, we did here a shot from a neighboring farm about 15 minutes after we heard the caps go off on the misfiring rifle but it was later reported as a miss at a doe. I assume that he is still walking and laughing. The only kill in camp was a 120 lb doe that I killed Sunday at dusk with a T/C 50 cal. flintlock.

 

[crockett]

The hammer is on a square stud from the tumbler, it may wobble from side to side but in order for it to be pushed back the main spring would have to start being depressed, the same as if the hammer was tight. If the hammer actually moves back and forth (versus wobble) then you must have some sort of a lock problem.

 

[J.D.]

Your friend wasn't using pyrodex pellets, by chance?

That would cause a problem with the pellets held an inch or more from the flash channel by the patent breech.

Maybe old powder? It's been my experience that pyro will absorb moitsure from the air faster than black.

Or possibly, the powder was compressed into a solid mass. This happened to a young man at a local rendezvous, several years ago.

The young man's gun would not fire, so a friend tried to help him clear the piece, to no avail.

Seeing the young man's frustration as the "friend" walked away, I offered to help. The nipple was removed to reveal the flash channel full of compacted pyrodex. A gift from the friend.

The clean out screw was then removed, by me, and some of the compacted pyrodex picked out of the flash channel. The nipple was replaced and the gun fired. The clean out screw hole acted as a vent.

Gas whooshed out of the cleanout hole like a large bottle rocket as the pyrodex slowly burned to the main charge, firing the gun.

J.D.

 

[Charley Hart]

I agree with the assessments about cleaning near the breech. I have seen issues with oil or grease causing a blockage to the cap. Usually this is the cause of my problems.

Shooting my 1861 rep on hot summer day and some of the wax/grease from the minnie was somehow blocking the ignition channel. Took 3 caps to finally clear it.

I consider that stuff to be an act of God. Just not mean to kill that particular deer.

 

[hobbles]

Mornin WildShot
You asked, so here my .02,, I used to get misfires usin Pyrodex RS,, a lot,, Then I met an old timer at the gun shop and he said he uses Pyrodex 3fg P, (Pyrodex is easy to get here also) I have fired 78 rounds in two days so far with out a miss fires, And I don't clean between shots, My weapon has to have a very oily patch to keep my POI close to each other, So far,, So good,,,,

 

[patch knife]

Hi wildshot , was your friend using CCI caps ? The reason I ask is , I was having problems with CCI caps about three years ago and I was also using loose pyrodex RS . I bought some RWS caps (very hot caps and very expensive) and my problems went away . I also switched back to using real black powder ( noticeably faster ignition) . I'm currently using Remington caps and they are working as well as the RWS caps . I had used Remington caps in the past and found them to be somewhat unreliable but the new Remington caps seem to be much better and hotter .

 

[renovato]

Patch Knife brings up a good point. I haven't used CCI caps in decades, but I've heard from a lot of folks saying that they are getting inconsistent firing with them. I use Remington caps and have never had a problem other than I did find an empty cap that had no compound.