We see a lot of this on our somewhat "traditional" forum. Many people don't want to shoot the way their ancestors did, they want to "improve" the process. Nothing wrong with it, it's just a different attitude.colorado clyde said:
Charge measuring
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Yeah, but there's only so much that can be done when re-inventing the wheel.
In the last 400yrs, pretty much everything's been done to improve "traditional" muzzle loaders.
I mean once the wheel is made round and moving fast on a good axle, Then strap a rocket engine and wings to it the wheel becomes unimportant and it becomes something else.
In the last 400yrs, pretty much everything's been done to improve "traditional" muzzle loaders.
I mean once the wheel is made round and moving fast on a good axle, Then strap a rocket engine and wings to it the wheel becomes unimportant and it becomes something else.
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I hear you Claude, I have been there myself before and find myself there still (on occasion).
Thanks for reeling me back in.
Thanks for reeling me back in.
Hey, I wasn't talking about you - I was agreeing with you. :thumbsup:colorado clyde said:
I began working up a load a few grains at a time and was pretty getting there with 70 grains of 2Æ’Æ’ in both of my .45 rifles. 75 grains seemed to be opening up a bit so I gradually adjusted my powder measure to somewhere halfway between 70 and 75 grains and was delighted.
I filed my powder flask spout to hold exactly that and continued to use that load till I no longer was able to shoot.
I weighed that powder charge on a grain scale and it came to 73 grains.
I guess I found Squirrel Duster's sweet spot but there were a few other adjustments down the road that completed the
recipe for both rifles. Consistency of using the most solid balls and getting the right amount of resistance by regulating my patch lubrication..
Too me, there was no more fun than in making any rifle accurate.
Necchi has it right as far as my experience showed me.
BUT no matter what you are doing, if you are getting the results you want, you are doing it right.
Dutch
I filed my powder flask spout to hold exactly that and continued to use that load till I no longer was able to shoot.
I weighed that powder charge on a grain scale and it came to 73 grains.
I guess I found Squirrel Duster's sweet spot but there were a few other adjustments down the road that completed the
recipe for both rifles. Consistency of using the most solid balls and getting the right amount of resistance by regulating my patch lubrication..
Too me, there was no more fun than in making any rifle accurate.
Necchi has it right as far as my experience showed me.
BUT no matter what you are doing, if you are getting the results you want, you are doing it right.
Dutch
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Dang! :shocked2: I’m not use to people agreeing with me. Kinda makes me feel warm and fuzzy all over. :grin:Claude said:
Billnpatti
Cannon
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"We see a lot of this on our somewhat "traditional" forum. Many people don't want to shoot the way their ancestors did, they want to "improve" the process. Nothing wrong with it, it's just a different attitude."
You're right, Claude. It's just different strokes for different folks. Some want to shoot like grandpappy did and some, like me and like Dutch, want to know what makes it go boom, how different factors effect performance and how I can make it shoot better. How we can achieve maximum accuracy. Either way is okay as long as the shooter is having fun. It's all about the fun. Why spit in the other guy's soup? :hatsoff:
You're right, Claude. It's just different strokes for different folks. Some want to shoot like grandpappy did and some, like me and like Dutch, want to know what makes it go boom, how different factors effect performance and how I can make it shoot better. How we can achieve maximum accuracy. Either way is okay as long as the shooter is having fun. It's all about the fun. Why spit in the other guy's soup? :hatsoff:
zimmerstutzen
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Odd how some folks here rant about getting the perfect load for accuracy and then pooh-pooh the idea about narrowing the other possible variables that affect accuracy. Sounds double tongued. Don't shoot a modern steel barrel cut to scientific precision, with store bought swaged balls and store patches and rant about the guys who are trying to surpass Dan'l and Davey at the range. You stick to your "good enough for me" and I'll keep trying to do better. But don't be foolish enough to make the blanket statement that it makes no difference. To suggest that the whole world shoots as you do, is about as egocentric and head in the sand as it gets. While it may not make any difference to your shooting, those experienced in trying to improve their shooting actually do know better.
Even minute of squirrel head is much larger than a one hole group. And frankly, minute of squirrel may provide some tasty dinners, it isn't all that accurate in the overall scheme of what is possible.
Even minute of squirrel head is much larger than a one hole group. And frankly, minute of squirrel may provide some tasty dinners, it isn't all that accurate in the overall scheme of what is possible.
AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
At one time I actually weightd charges from several powder measures to see what the actual weight was. Satisfied that they were 'reasonably' close, I put away the scale and went about the business of shooting.
As time and number of measures progressed, I decided to make them all as uniform as I could. Unlike some folks here, who who appear to have a single rifle, and maybe a measure or 2, I not only had multiple fixed-volume measures, but also multiple adjustable measures that I wanted to use interchangably, on whatever whim.
I spent considerable time throwing charges thru spouts, from fixed volume measures, and also the adjustable measures, and did a little adjusting with file or emery paper. To my satisfaction, I can pick up a particular measure, and use it to successfully get range results to my satisfaction.
As time and number of measures progressed, I decided to make them all as uniform as I could. Unlike some folks here, who who appear to have a single rifle, and maybe a measure or 2, I not only had multiple fixed-volume measures, but also multiple adjustable measures that I wanted to use interchangably, on whatever whim.
I spent considerable time throwing charges thru spouts, from fixed volume measures, and also the adjustable measures, and did a little adjusting with file or emery paper. To my satisfaction, I can pick up a particular measure, and use it to successfully get range results to my satisfaction.
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The only place I've run into trouble with measures is throwing dinky charges. "Small" variations of only a half grain or a grain are a bigger deal when you're tossing 10 or 15 grain charges for a small bore.
I have a little tiny brass adjustable measure I picked up somewhere in the last 20 years, and I sure wish I could find another for insurance in case I ever lost this one. It's not as big around as a standard pencil and only about 1.5" long when collapsed. Volume when fully extended is only 20 grains, and it's marked off in quarter-grain increments.
Using a scale and comparing it with standard adjustable measures, it's a whale of a lot more accurate with those tiny charges. I can consistently get within a quarter grain, which is a good deal for a load of only 8 grains. Trying to toss 8 grains with a standard measure, my range was from 6.5 grains to almost 10 grains, the usual 3 grain or so variation with such a big fat measure.
A range of 3.5 grains is not enough to make much difference when tossing 80 grain charges, but a very big deal with tiny charges. That 35% range would be like tossing charges ranging between 65 grains and 100 grains every time you measured "80 grains" for a bigger gun.
My solution has been to use skinnier measures for all my guns, getting downright stupid looking for the little guns. But the results are clear on paper with the little guns.
I have a little tiny brass adjustable measure I picked up somewhere in the last 20 years, and I sure wish I could find another for insurance in case I ever lost this one. It's not as big around as a standard pencil and only about 1.5" long when collapsed. Volume when fully extended is only 20 grains, and it's marked off in quarter-grain increments.
Using a scale and comparing it with standard adjustable measures, it's a whale of a lot more accurate with those tiny charges. I can consistently get within a quarter grain, which is a good deal for a load of only 8 grains. Trying to toss 8 grains with a standard measure, my range was from 6.5 grains to almost 10 grains, the usual 3 grain or so variation with such a big fat measure.
A range of 3.5 grains is not enough to make much difference when tossing 80 grain charges, but a very big deal with tiny charges. That 35% range would be like tossing charges ranging between 65 grains and 100 grains every time you measured "80 grains" for a bigger gun.
My solution has been to use skinnier measures for all my guns, getting downright stupid looking for the little guns. But the results are clear on paper with the little guns.
Brown Bear.
What device do you have that requires an 8 grain load? Are you shooting indoors?
When will the divorce become final?
Update on the Lead free balls.
The ingot arrived and seems a bit harder than lead. Can cut with a knife but not a thumbnail.
We rate waiting for the mold to arrive to further experiment.
Dutch
What device do you have that requires an 8 grain load? Are you shooting indoors?
When will the divorce become final?
Update on the Lead free balls.
The ingot arrived and seems a bit harder than lead. Can cut with a knife but not a thumbnail.
We rate waiting for the mold to arrive to further experiment.
Dutch
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Dutch Schoultz said:
:rotf:
I'm actually using 10 grains in both my 30 and 32 cal rifles, 15 grains in my 36 cal. I ran the check against 8 grains because that made for easier math when comparing with the checking I'd done with the 80 grain charge common to several of my 50 and 54 cal rifles.
I keep going down the charge scale in my small calibers trying to minimize meat loss on errant head shots for small game, looking to get into or below the realm of velocities for 22LR. Even at 22LR velocities those "big" .290, .310 and .350 round balls create havoc if your head shot drops into the neck, causing you to toss both front shoulders most of the time.
Been sliding down the scale for about 10 years now, a little more each year. Accuracy remains stellar, even though I'm still not quite happy with what happens to eating meat when my aim isn't. In the 30 and 32 cal rifles I'm thinking about 8 grains, so it's not altogether arbitrary. I did shoot some 10 grain charges in the 36 and I might be right where I want with it while groups at 25 yards are still well under an inch.
BTW- Another good reason for the little charges, even for plinking, is the difficulty and expense of getting black powder up here. Last I got was $32 a pound, and I was proud to get it. But it "inspires" me to be getting 700 shots per pound rather than waste powder and money where it's not needed.
Good question, and I hope I've answered it adequately.
hanshi
Cannon
The fly in the ointment is the fact that the charge/velocity line is not straight or even remotely straight. In chronographing my .40 a while back I was astounded at the difference only 5 grains made at one particular level. At 35 grains velocity was around 1450fps. But when 5 more grains of powder was added (40 grns), the velocity went up to around 1700fps; an increase of some 250fps! For just an additional five (5) grains of powder! That was the only charge level that showed such a different and I duplicated it in a second test.
8-10 grains is a good load in my lil baby dragoon! Will do as brown bear and look fer a skinny measure!
Brown Bear,
You are exploring in a new direction. . Most people I had coached were of the opinion that stronger was better.
I have long felt that placement was more important than sheer power.
As you seem to concentrate on head shots with apparently some success, accuracy is apparently not a problem.
Interesting work.
Dutch Schoultz
You are exploring in a new direction. . Most people I had coached were of the opinion that stronger was better.
I have long felt that placement was more important than sheer power.
As you seem to concentrate on head shots with apparently some success, accuracy is apparently not a problem.
Interesting work.
Dutch Schoultz
Don Steele
45 Cal.
@ 32.00 a pound....I'd be looking at minimal charges too...!!!
Most of the posts thus far in this thread have been referring to variables that may or may not affect PRECISION (group size)rather than ACCURACY (hitting any given target).
Brownbear....I'm curious to know how such minimalist powder charges hold up over various ranges ??
After you find a sweet-spot minimal load, have you fired it over several ranges to determine the external ballistic performance..??
When you know the range you're going to shoot in advance...quite often it's NOT the most powerful load that gives the tightest group.
That said, when you have little or no idea what ranges you will be shooting...a more powerful load can provide a wider range of acceptable flight. AnAcceptable flight is what that hunters need and why many will accept less than 1-hole PRECISION from a load combo in order to be able to confidently take shots from 20 out to 100 yds. at any time a game animal might present itself.
Your work with your small calibers has me curious how low I can go in my 50's, especially for the 25 and 50 yd relays.
Oh Lord....here I go..!! :hmm:
Most of the posts thus far in this thread have been referring to variables that may or may not affect PRECISION (group size)rather than ACCURACY (hitting any given target).
Brownbear....I'm curious to know how such minimalist powder charges hold up over various ranges ??
After you find a sweet-spot minimal load, have you fired it over several ranges to determine the external ballistic performance..??
When you know the range you're going to shoot in advance...quite often it's NOT the most powerful load that gives the tightest group.
That said, when you have little or no idea what ranges you will be shooting...a more powerful load can provide a wider range of acceptable flight. AnAcceptable flight is what that hunters need and why many will accept less than 1-hole PRECISION from a load combo in order to be able to confidently take shots from 20 out to 100 yds. at any time a game animal might present itself.
Your work with your small calibers has me curious how low I can go in my 50's, especially for the 25 and 50 yd relays.
Oh Lord....here I go..!! :hmm:
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Don Steele said:
That was two years ago, too. Dunno what it costs now, and I'm afraid to ask.
As for distance, my intent is head shooting small game, so I've never bothered to shoot them past about 35 yards, and 25 yards is a more typical "long" shot.
I'm a firm believer in lots of field shooting with my bigger bores too, in order to really know the gun when it comes time to hunt larger game. I can't tell you how many bunny heads I've mushed with them over the years.
Therefore I've worked up reduced loads for all my 50, 54 and 58 caliber rifles. Coincidence or not, each of them thrives on 30-35 grains of 3f. I haven't tried lower because I'm a little nervous about failing to fill the patent breeches on those that have them. With a standard flat-faced breech I'm sure you could go lower, so long as the ball didn't drop back behind the touch hole/flame channel. Shooting light charges simply hasn't worked out in my slow-twist 62 cal however. It's accuracy falls apart below about 70 grains.
In all my larger bore rifles I've discovered something pretty interesting. With them sighted in at 75 yards using full snort hunting loads, the light charges pretty much hit point of aim at 25 yards. If they're off, it's so little that you can easily compensate with a bit of Kentucky windage. That means you don't have to mess with your sights to shoot the light loads. Talk about handy!
BrownBear said:
That is some very interesting info. I have never tried my 32 below about 15 grains. I am going to try 5 and 8 too. Powder can typically be found in Alberta for about $20 a pound but why use more than you need to. Will be very interested to see what kind of groups I can get with those light loads.
I am also going to try a skinnier measure for the light loads and see if that gives me better consistency like it did for you. While blackpowder can be done by volume or weight, I agree with you that a couple of grains difference at 10 grains is going to make a lot bigger difference than it does on an 80 grain load. The same shows up when loading very small CF cartridges like the 22 Squirrel where you can go from good to way over pressure with 2 tenths of a grain increase in powder. That would never be noticed even in a hot loaded 308 and while black and smokeless do not behave the same it isn't hard to believe the much larger relative percentage difference has an impact.
Your point about reduced loads in big bores being dead on at 25 yards matches my experience and I fully agree that it is VERY handy to be able to shoot the light loads for small game without messing with the sights.
zimmerstutzen
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"PRECISION (group size)rather than ACCURACY (hitting any given target)."
There's a difference?
Every muzzleloader allegedly likes a different load and the shooter must shoot various combinations to arrive at that "preferred" load and then adjust the sights accordingly. For anyone who has done so, there is absolutely no difference between the two.
Frankly, I am also a firm believer in using the smallest target load that does the job. I regularly use 30 grains in a 58 cal Zouave to 75 yds. We routinely start beginners with 50 caliber guns and 30 grain loads. Easy on the shoulders and easy on the ears and very precise in most production guns to 50 yds.
The powder measure that came with my 36 cal target pistol holds only 11 grains of 3ffg. It is already slim, but I still use a long shank funnel to pour the powder down.
There's a difference?
Every muzzleloader allegedly likes a different load and the shooter must shoot various combinations to arrive at that "preferred" load and then adjust the sights accordingly. For anyone who has done so, there is absolutely no difference between the two.
Frankly, I am also a firm believer in using the smallest target load that does the job. I regularly use 30 grains in a 58 cal Zouave to 75 yds. We routinely start beginners with 50 caliber guns and 30 grain loads. Easy on the shoulders and easy on the ears and very precise in most production guns to 50 yds.
The powder measure that came with my 36 cal target pistol holds only 11 grains of 3ffg. It is already slim, but I still use a long shank funnel to pour the powder down.
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