Charge measuring

[Zonie]

Just for chuckles after reading this topic I got out the ole' Lyman Blackpowder Handbook and compared a few velocity changes based on using a powder load that was 10 grains different.

In a .50 caliber roundball barrel with a 1:60 twist, it averaged out that changing a load one grain changed the velocity about 7.6 fps.

If this is true, a 3 grain powder load change would change the MV about 23 fps.

I suppose if one was shooting tiny groups in a championship target match that would be real important.
If the person was shooting game or plinking it probably wouldn't make a bit of difference.

IMO, folks need to figure out what they want.
If it is not perfection, don't overthink it. Just go out and have fun.

 

[cynthialee]

I am very consistent with my loading and I am very careful to make sure I get the powder well settled in my measure and to the exact same spot at the top every time. So long as I am loading from the same powder I should not have much variation in my weight. Then I use a funnel to be sure every granule gets into the barrel. Yeah I am a little OCD when it comes to these things.

 

[George]

If this is true, a 3 grain powder load change would change the MV about 23 fps.

Sometime when you have time to kill, play with the trajectories you get with these slightly different velocities. You will find that it takes a surprisingly large change in velocity to make any practical change in POI.

I don't think the average hunter would notice any change by if he loaded 5 gr. more or less of powder.

The same is true for weight of balls, of course. It takes a significant difference to move the POI enough to matter.

Spence.

 

[azmntman]

I don't think the average hunter would notice any change by if he loaded 5 gr. more or less of powder.

And when hunting IF a second shot is needed one always spills more than that reloading! :blah:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Aint that the truth! :haha:

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

I don't think the average hunter would notice any change by if he loaded 5 gr. more or less of powder.

When I started this game I had the good fortune to be mentored by some of the greats of the time. One of the things I was taught was "a five grain variance will not change anything". I never accepted that as correct. If it were true, another five grains would still not change anything and another five...... :shocked2:
It has to make a difference. Maybe with some of the no-name Scottish import powders some of us were using at the time might not show much differenc, there still had to be one. If you have time and powder to burn, test it out and let us know. :wink: :haha:

 

[Melnic]

Being an Engineer I hear absolutes all the time when they should not be worded that way.
Many times things should be spoken like "no significant difference".

Like "At 50 yards, a few grain variance in powder makes no significant difference when shooting offhand".
This I think would be a more correct statement than leaving the word significant out.

If only my wife would learn what is significant and what is minutia I might save some time in my life

 

[tenngun]

noted your statement Zonie, and just thought I would :stir: abit. These are based on 10 shot avarages. I never used a conograph, but looking at the results of others using them I see a 10-30 fps as the spread that's averaged out. I wonder if a three grain difference between charge and charge would effect the average velocity as much as not swabbing between shots, different pressure on the ramrod,not enough or too much lube rubbed in to the patch, tempture of the day, a bit of fouling in the touch hole or vent, ect.
I also noted looking at my old 'Lymans Blackpowder Handbook' increased charges sometimes had little or no change on mv.I wonder if someone did conograph studies on 'hunting charges'. In this case loading from the bag, from a horn and charger in primitive fashion vs pre weighed powder in tubes with prelubed patchs and then shot at different times of the day in different levels of sun light with the added tic of velocity and energy at 50 and 100 yards.

 

[Rifleman1776]

If only my wife would learn what is significant and what is minutia I might save some time in my life

Are you married to my wife also? :shocked2: :rotf:

 

[Col. Batguano]

We're talking about differences that are within one standard deviation, and the establishment of the width of the parabola for that deviation. While true, you can weigh everything you can weigh, and have everything the same, there are still elements that you can not absolutely control. For instance, the shape of the individual granules of powder will be different for each load, and produce a different burn and pressure rate, the amount and location of fouling, seating pressure, fluctuations in air currents, pollen count, sun spot cycle.you get the idea. That's why the most accurate guns out there are air guns, as their breech pressures (nothing to burn) are the closest to being consistent every time.

 

[Ken Cormier]

I also have never weighed r/b or powder and never worried about it. As long as I keep it in the kill zone on a whitetail and mid 40's on the range I am good to go. I have let the competitive side of shooting to the younger folks. It is to me just as important to be consistent in my shooting. I find that the time spent at the range with like minded folks as enjoyable as shooting. Also if I can help less experienced shooters with there shooting and maintaining there equipment all the better as I have found over the year's that if new shooters have problems most never come back. Just a rant.

 

[bpd303]

Second shot when hunting????
Heck, I spill that much at the loading bench. :cursing:

Gotta get one of those small funnels.

 

[tenngun]

For sure elemanate the varriables you can and deal with the rest. Joe on the firering line has to be a lot more consistant the joe in the woods. Deer not having targets painted on thier sides, seen oft times in poor light or light rain or overly bright and at odd angles to boot your target is closer to hand sized then that small ornge dot. 5 nine ring shots wont win you any prizes,but dinner plate groups will put meat on the table. 3 grains may make a difference on the range, but I don't know that little premesured tubes of powder vs charging from a horn to a charger and a sloppy lubed patch and a little out of wt ball would make a clean kill any more likly.

 

[George]

When I started this game I had the good fortune to be mentored by some of the greats of the time. One of the things I was taught was "a five grain variance will not change anything". I never accepted that as correct.

When you say you were mentored by dummies who believed such nonesense, are you bragging or complaining? :grin:

If it were true, another five grains would still not change anything and another five...... :shocked2:

And if you go halfway there every time, you can never get there.

Rifleman1776, I don't know what to offer you as evidence. You seem to believe the whole topic of ballistics is out of place in these discussions, so pointing out that it's an easy thing to calculate is a waste of ink. If you wouldn't accept the facts from those mentors of yours, I certainly have no chance of convincing you. I've studied the trajectories and tried them in the field many, many times, and I have no doubt what I said is true. Everyone should believe what they choose.

Notice exactly what I said: "I don't think the average hunter would notice any change by if he loaded 5 gr. more or less of powder." Championship shooters who get their knickers in a knot over a 1/4" movement of POI at 1000 yards should ignore what I suggest. :haha:

Spence

 

[Don Steele]

I love this kind of stuff. My Thanks to everyone who actually has done some work both at home with a scale, and on the range. I've also looked at this question, as well as how different powders actually fill different measures in an effort to know how many grains I'm ACTUALLY loading, not just what the volumetric measure says I'm loading.
If you'll remember, I'm also one of those guys who weighs balls, grades according to weight and tosses back anything outside of a +/- 0.5 gn. acceptance range for 50 cal RB's.
I measure patch material with a micrometer,and use a dry-lube system (Thanks Dutch) applied as CONSISTENTLY as possible to lube my patches.
Does ANY OF THIS "matter"....heck I don't know. Frankly, I don't care. I enjoy it. I enjoy eliminating any POTENTIAL issues that might affect my group size. That's all part of how I enjoy shooting. To those who do only some, or even none of these things...that's how YOU enjoy shooting and "good-on-ya".
All this said...Just so you know I'm not TOTALLY crazy... :youcrazy: I'm still not weighing and measuring my flints. :shake:
You do know that differences in the both the weight of the flint in your cock, AND the amount of bearing surface striking the frizzen could(might..??)affect the shot-to-shot consistency don't you...??? :blah: :rotf:

 

[coloradoclyde]

M.M.S. (Modern Muzzleloader Syndrome) : The act of applying modern techniques to primitive firearms in an effort to evolve the primitive technology into a modern weapon.

Seems counter intuitive to me. :hmm: :youcrazy:

I can load my .45 with 25 grains of powder and shoot ground squirrels, 50 grains and punch holes in paper, and 75 grains and shoot deer. The powder charge has been tripled from the beginning, or 25 grains in either direction from the middle. That’s a lot of allowable variance.
Modern smokeless guns have a variance of only a couple of grains in either direction otherwise KABOOM! You have a disaster in your hands.

A 1/2 grain of powder can make a big difference downrange in a modern gun but has no affect on a muzzleloader. Most powder measures for muzzleloaders are marked in 5 or 10 grain increments for a reason.

 

[joe sebia]

As was said previously BP is measured by volume not weight. Slight variences in technique, like tapping the measure to settle the charge can have effects on the charge.

That said, I really think if you have to walk a tight rope to maintain accuracy something is wrong. By that I mean if a RB is 2 grains heavier or lighter than average- shouldnt make a difference. If a powder charge is 2-3 grains off...shouldnt make a difference. PROVIDED you are shooting in the sweet spot for the rifle.

Consider this. Take any rifle lets say a 50 cal.
If I load exactly 85 grains of FF and place a RB that is perfectly symetrical and weighs 178 gr exactly with a patch exactly 0.015" and exactly 0.3 g lube in a spotlessly clean barrel and my shooting technique was perfect, every shot should hit in the exact place. Zero deviation.

We find however there are deviations and we have to "work up a load" to see what the rifle likes.
If all the variables were minimized we shouldn't have to do that. Every thing was the same right? So why vary charges patches, ball and lube? Obviously something else is in play. Same for CF rifles.

What could that be? When we fire any rifle, shock waves travel from the breech to the muzzle back and forth in waves. If the bullet leaves the muzzle when the wave is at the muzzle, the variation is great and thus you get poor groups, even if all components are of minimal deviation.

Conversely, if the bullet leaves the muzzle when the shock wave is at the breech, the muzzle is fairly stable and you get greater CONSISTANCY, ie the sweet spot.

By stable muzzle I mean not just the minimal movement of recoil, but also the minimal expansion in the diameter of the bore. For instance the shockwave provided by the ignited powder will make the bore of the muzzle expand and contract from say .500 to maybe .505 and back again. If the bullet is leaving at .505 one time, .503 the next then .501 accuracy will suffer. (Remember why we put so much effort into protecting the crown of our rifle)

The goal is to have the bullet exit at a consistant bore diameter when the muzzle is stable.

Without getting into all the engineering in this theory. Lets just say we got to find "the sweet spot"

Once found, normal variation in charges, patch thickness, bullet diameter and weight will matter little.

Life is simple.

 

[Dwight Rutherford]

Colorado Clyde,
Think your post is the voice of reason.

 

[necchi]

Without getting into all the engineering in this theory. Lets just say we got to find "the sweet spot".

That's best, because you presented an over-simplified explanation of barrel harmonics.

I've found the lube properties of the patch with all it's variables to be vastly more relative to consistency than the +/- issues of a tossed powder charge.
How a patch grips the ball and rifling, how slick it is and how the lube/patch leaves the bore condition all contribute to where a ball is in the bore during all the "harmonic" movement.
"Fouling" aka: the amount of drag,, placed on the patched ball in the bore from shot to shot is a huge factor when someone is looking for the best accuracy a rifle can offer.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Let’s not discount the single biggest variable when shooting.

The loose nut behind the trigger. :rotf: