Charleville Musket?

[mzloder]

For some time now my "inner child" has been screaming that he needs a smoothbore flintlock in order to feel "whole". Maybe "need" isn't quite correct bit I started looking around and found this:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/488/1/AAL-961

at a price that was manageable for me. My question is this; Does anyone have one and could offer some feedback on this piece? The other piece that caught my eye was this one:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/GunKit.aspx/606/1/NORTH-WEST-TRADE-GUN-PARTS-LIST

for about $100 more. This would allow me to build my own smoothie over the winter doldrums! I also looked at what they offer at North Star West, VERY nice pieces but the price is a bit too much for my budget.

So, if anyone has input on these two guns please post away, I'm eager to hear what you have to say!

 

[Grenadier1758]

The price point for the Charleville makes me wonder what the country of manufacture may be. The TotW site doesn't list the manufacturer or I may have overlooked it. Actually the second view list the origin as an East India Company. Later on TotW informs us that the vent is yet to be drilled and a touch hole liner should be installed. This means that the gun was not subject to proofing requirements. Yes, US made guns are not proofed, but there is an expectation that the gun is suitable for use as intended. And yes, I have two India made smoothbores that were sold as shootable firearms. I'd have to pass on the Charleville.

The military style gun can be quite heavy and slow to use as a fowler. For shooting enjoyment, I think a fowler such as the Northwest gun or for a few dollars more, the English Fowler is quite attractive.

I think the parts set for the Northwest Gun is a good value. Plan on spending considerably more time to put the Track kit together than 40 hours. Sign up for the gunsmithing services to install the breech plug, front sight and under barrel lugs. The Northwest gun should be lighter and easier to handle.

My personal preference would be for the sleeker lines of an English Fowler.

Track of the Wolf English Fowler

 

[54ball]

Save your money and get the the North Star West.

Now, if you want to build, buy the kit. If you think the kit will save you money, it won't. Think of tools, shop, finish materials, education and time.

 

[Alden]

TOW is now being almost as cute as others and not saying where guns are built!? THAT'S a surprising sea-change...

"Imported." Not drilled to get through "Customs." "Made by East India Company" twice... They USED to hide it in the 6th or 7th picture commentary: "Made in India." Now they just allude to it?

What?!?

Obviously an India-made gun and they have to say it has handling/demo marks because of its finish... Jeez!

 

[tenngun]

A couple of years ago I built the track north west gun. I'm very happy with it. Its not as good as north star west, and I did not put on the proof stamps and tombstone fox. It is a good shooter.
I have never owned a charly but have owned a bess in the past, the fusil handles a lot easier as does even the longer centermark tulle. As a mater of taste I dont like the looks of bannded guns. I have known a few people who have owned some curry poppers and they have worked well for them. Few of us can go 'money is no object' route and the price is a factor.
On that note the kit from north star west is not much higher then tracks, but as said I have been happy with mine and Track has always done rigt by me. Just for s&g I kept track of building time, and it was 104 hours till I put on my first coat of stain.

 

[JD Peppergrinder]

If it's stamps and PC/HC markings you might be interested in this. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1045/1

 

[tenngun]

No thanks I chose not to. You can get them or track will stamp them for you, and they look great. This is what the old guns had and belong on the gun. How ever I dont aply old proof marks since they have lost thier meaning in a modren world. There are a few things about recreating the past that I feel is sacread ground and I dont tresspass on it. Nor can I explain it in any way that makes sence or has any logical bases, but there are some things that make me uncomfotale and some things that are right. I dont know why and dont try to talk others in to my point of view

 

[Ike Godsey]

The price point for the Charleville makes me wonder what the country of manufacture may be. The TotW site doesn't list the manufacturer or I may have overlooked it. Actually the second view list the origin as an East India Company. Later on TotW informs us that the vent is yet to be drilled and a touch hole liner should be installed. This means that the gun was not subject to proofing requirements. Yes, US made guns are not proofed, but there is an expectation that the gun is suitable for use as intended. ...

Not sure if that helps, but I like to trow in some words on the safety of India muskets.
I have and shoot an India made Replika auf a 1728 French Musket. It came here without touchhole doe to costums...

Anyway, here in Germany EVERY firearm (also blankers!!) must be proofed by an official proofhouse.
Therefore the gun needs to take 5 (five!!) shots. The gun must be loaded with a load following the requirements the proofhouse sets.

The gun is measured after each shot. If it passes the testfiring, they stemp the barrel of the gun:

And give you a certificate with the loading datas. Here is the obe they gave me for my gun:

12 gramm of Blackpowder and 50 gramm lead bullet! Thats close to 180 grain BP and 770 grain lead ball!

Ike

 

[pargent]

:thumbsup: :applause:

 

[nwtradegun]

all the low price guns on tow are made in india. what co. I do not know

 

[Alden]

I think these are relatively rare at Track -- they just get somethin' in once in a while like that. But masking the origin on their own site is as bad as Veteran Arms or MVT hiding it when they sell them on auction sites -- they're all HOPING someone doesn't know any better and think to ask.

It's called a "deceptive practice." Any sale at any cost...

 

[jamesthomas]

ff I've always wanted to learn German but they have some awfully long words that this southern guy just can't get his tongue around!. Like the word Schwarzpulveresatzstoffe ! what the ?, did someone do something with his coffee "stoffee"? :idunno:

 

[Artificer]

Before I begin, I should state I am not connected with TOTW in any way.

The following is the actual wording from TOTW.

"This is a correct replica of the French Model 1777 Musket, neatly polished and finished, by East India Company."

If there is a company or wholesaler called "East India Company" and that is where the gun came from originally, then there is nothing deceptive by the statement from TOTW. Now the Company or wholesaler calling themselves by different or clever names is nothing new. Companies who import guns or assemble guns and sell them by their company's name, or some thing else, is also a long tradition that dates back to the 18th century.

My thoughts are it would only be a deceptive practice if when you called or wrote TOTW and asked them in what country the gun was made, they did not tell you the country of origin.

I agree with others that UNLESS one wants a Military Musket for a representative period smoothbore, then other choices may be more to the customers' likings and uses.

I had a Navy Arms Brown Bess Carbine for years that I competed with in the Northwest Trade Gun Aggregate. (Oh, that gun was not made by Navy Arms even though their name was on it.) It was not as competitive as period civilian guns and was not as good for hunting. However, I bought the gun primarily to reenact with in a Sergeant's impression as no Sergeant's Fusils were available then other than expensive custom guns I could not afford. I accepted the fact my carbine was not as good for competition or hunting as a civilian style gun would have been.

If one primarily wants a gun for hunting, then my suggestion is NOT to buy a replica of a period military gun. Stay with a period civilian gun for a gun mainly to be used for hunting.

If one wants to hunt and reenact with a gun, then a civilian fowler or other civilian smoothbore is better suited to both purposes.

Now if one is doing purely or mostly a Military Impression in reenacting, then buy the or a correct Military Gun.

Oh as to kits, many people buy them who are not mechanically inclined or do not want to buy the tools and equipment or spend the time to assemble them. They THINK the kit will just "screw together" and when they find most kits are a lot of work, the kit gets put to the side and is sold for far less money later on. Kits MAY or may not be good for people who want to try their hand at assembling guns to see if they want to go further down that path. If one is not patient enough to spend many, MANY hours in assembling a gun, then a kit is not a good choice at all.

Gus

 

[19 16 6]

I have a German name & it uses half of the alphabet to spell it. I only mastered spelling it by age 12.

Anyhow, what more does it take to prove that Charleville.

More so what would it take for some importer to get a good man into India to mentor & quality control the manufacturing there. It was done in Italy & now a lot of good guns come from there with about the best barrels produced.

They just need some help to get a better fit & finish result. A bit of work with metallurgy, with which they seem quite competent in already. Pay them another $25 to do this, or $50 if you want the guns proofed as well.

I know that it takes the food from the mouths of domestic manufacturers, but hey that is happening now anyhow.

Seems to me that some of you would go without under shorts to cut them up for free cleaning patches & save 50 cents. :v So saving a buck or three on India made guns of proven quality would put you back in undies :grin: .
O.

 

[Ike Godsey]

ff I've always wanted to learn German but they have some awfully long words that this southern guy just can't get his tongue around!. Like the word Schwarzpulveresatzstoffe ! what the ?, did someone do something with his coffee "stoffee"? :idunno:

Well, my english isn't that good either, and I really do not have any idea how to explain what the term Schwarzpulverersatzstoffe means, but I'll try.

Pyrotex or Triple Seven is a "Schwarzpulverersatzstoff".

Not sure if that helps :hmm:

Ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

I have a German name & it uses half of the alphabet to spell it. I only mastered spelling it by age 12.

Anyhow, what more does it take to prove that Charleville.

More so what would it take for some importer to get a good man into India to mentor & quality control the manufacturing there. It was done in Italy & now a lot of good guns come from there with about the best barrels produced.

They just need some help to get a better fit & finish result. A bit of work with metallurgy, with which they seem quite competent in already. Pay them another $25 to do this, or $50 if you want the guns proofed as well.

I know that it takes the food from the mouths of domestic manufacturers, but hey that is happening now anyhow.

Seems to me that some of you would go without under shorts to cut them up for free cleaning patches & save 50 cents. :v So saving a buck or three on India made guns of proven quality would put you back in undies :grin: .
O.

The problem is the law down there in India.
If you want to have it proofed, they need to drill a touch hole. Doing so will turn a "Deko-Piece" into a firearm which by their law could not be exported.

This is a quote from the French dealer that offers India made muskets:

The frizzen cover is case hardened, and the seamless tempered barrel is made of high carbon steel (type:BS970 no.080M40). The breech is threaded.

My 1728 is from there. If you go by the steel - (check the lists onn steel) thats a good steel for blackpowder. And YES the barrel is seamless. Threaded breech.
So drill a touch hole and get t proofed (which I did) everything is fine.

I am happy with every india made gun I have.

Ike

 

[19 16 6]

Thanks for clearing that up Ike.
I ought to know by now that when something doesn't make sense it is because there is a law against it
O.

 

[Enfield1]

I've been in the sport for 18 years, now. For me, personally, if it's a reproduction that I'm gonna shoot live rounds out of and not just blanks at a reenactment or demonstration, then I am saving up for a Pedersoli. I have a Pedersoli 1861 Springfield and a 2nd Model Bess and love them both. They weren't as low in cost as several others being offered on the market, but I have peace of mind that I have a good, strong, safe product as long as I do my part. I do however also have the 1842 Springfield smoothbore musket offered by Armisport that has also been an excellent musket for me. I, too would love a Pedersoli 1766 Charleville, but I also want the wife and I to be able to retire someday and It's time to start making some sacrafices. :hatsoff:

 

[Alden]

...there is nothing deceptive by the statement from TOTW.

Gus

Of course there is. And the best proof is they USED to tell you when the gun was made in India -- this is the first time I've seen they haven't. That's the "sea change" I spoke of. And it's designed to obfuscate an important truth in this shooting sports community. Some may even be fooled into thinking this is an antique from THE East India Company. Others may just think "oh, OK, I've heard of them somewhere before."

Japan created a city named Usa so they could stamp things "MADE IN USA" to be sold abroad. Be OK if Track just passed that "statement" along too!? Of course not.

Shame on Track! And I'm certainly surprised at you Gus.

 

[Ike Godsey]

Ok, here is the TOTW text regarding the make of this musket:

...
This is a correct replica of the French Model 1777 Musket, neatly polished and finished, by East India Company. ...

Could it not be, that they just "mistyped" this? How does this sound to you:

...and finished, by an East India Company...

???

Keep it mind that sometimes those people that are typing informations on a web site are not the "best trained" ones. Maybe the writer heard "India" and had "East India Co." in mind.

And if in doubt, why not simply ask TOTW?
:v
Ike