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Charleville Musket?
- Thread starter mzloder
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Alden said:
Was it deceptive when Navy Arms marked their guns with their name when the guns were actually made in Italy, Japan and I think one they sold for a while came from Spain (a short lived in-line gun on a fiberglass stock)? Was it deceptive when other BP wholesalers and retailers have done the same thing over the last 40 years?
Was it deceptive when SEARS, Western Auto and other retailers had their guns marked with their own brand names when the guns actually were made by gun makers in the USA and Belgium? I could add a host of other semi modern to modern "gun makers" who have done the same thing in the last 40 years.
No, DECEPTION is not when they list the company that made the gun, but rather if and when they will not tell you where the gun was made. As I already pointed out, if one was to contact TOTW and they would not tell you where the gun came from, then that would be deception.
Gus
Anyone with a lick of common sense would presume the gun was made in India, when the description is finished by the East India Company.
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bpd303 said:
Exactly right.
Gus
Edited to Add: Also, anyone who would recognize the name "East India Company' from historical references, knows they went out of business a LONG time ago.
I don't agree either of those were true. But let's pretend they are...
How do you explain Track CHANGING disclosing guns made in India to this new not-actually-lying? Coincidence maybe. Accident perhaps! They took a survey and decided people thought Navy Arms' quality was on par with India-made and no-one in the U.S CARES if a gun is made in India so let's stop bothering to TELL them!?
Navy Arms controlled the quality of the pieces WITH THEIR NAME on them. People knew what they were getting. People weren't buying the country of origin, they were buying SEARS, Western Auto, and are buying Browning and Traditions today as THEY also have their names on the guns and stand behind them.
Is this a Track of the Wolf branded gun? No! And what India-made gun doesn't have the name of the company and origin hidden from plain site if it's legible at all anywhere!? What a disingenuous argument you make Gus. I'm really still surprised.
No, they CHANGED their commentary. They knew better. Now they want to deceive. To cash in. Good luck Mr. John Q. Public -- if you don't dig, and are dumb enough to buy without playing detective, you lose (an important informed decision-making fact).
How do you explain Track CHANGING disclosing guns made in India to this new not-actually-lying? Coincidence maybe. Accident perhaps! They took a survey and decided people thought Navy Arms' quality was on par with India-made and no-one in the U.S CARES if a gun is made in India so let's stop bothering to TELL them!?
Navy Arms controlled the quality of the pieces WITH THEIR NAME on them. People knew what they were getting. People weren't buying the country of origin, they were buying SEARS, Western Auto, and are buying Browning and Traditions today as THEY also have their names on the guns and stand behind them.
Is this a Track of the Wolf branded gun? No! And what India-made gun doesn't have the name of the company and origin hidden from plain site if it's legible at all anywhere!? What a disingenuous argument you make Gus. I'm really still surprised.
No, they CHANGED their commentary. They knew better. Now they want to deceive. To cash in. Good luck Mr. John Q. Public -- if you don't dig, and are dumb enough to buy without playing detective, you lose (an important informed decision-making fact).
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
Alden said:
How do you know?
Ike
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
Alden said:
Are you sure about this?
I can show you a couple of percussion sixshooters bearing the Nay Arms stemp on them, made to suh a poor quality that they did not make the German proof test.
Ike
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Alden,
The guns sold by Sears, Wards, Western Auto, etc. under their own names normally did not have as good of wood and polish/finish of the metal parts as the SAME guns sold by the gun companies. Yes, they worked the same, BUT they were not as high of quality as the same models sold by the gun companies. You do remember that, don't you?
I started working in what was called "The Navy Arms Booth" at the NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships in the Spring of 1974. Navy Arms did not actually rent a booth until the mid 1980's in their own name.
I remember what was said in very derogatory terms about the Navy Arms Eye-tal-yun guns in the 70's when most people who did well in the competitions still shot originals. It was many years before Navy Arms told anyone that some of their guns were made in Japan. Navy Arms did sell some fine guns and those were usually made by Zoli, Pedersoli, Euroarms and some of the Japanese guns, but they also sold lower quality guns by other manufacturers at various times. Shall we even go into how they bought the Parker Hale name and then the guns went WAY DOWN in quality as they first used real PH barrels and Italian parts until they ran out of real PH barrels and finally ALL Italian Parts? They didn't make that clear either. Shall we talk about the really poor quality Smith Carbines that Navy Arms stamped their name on and the barrels were LARGER in bore size at the muzzle than the breech, really bad clean out screws and other problems? It was actually the guy who ran the Navy Arms booth at the NSSA shoots who saved Navy Arms on those guns. Bobby Hoyt got flooded with folks having those guns relined.
Now when WE sold the guns, we told customers WHO made the guns, WHERE they were made AND the relative quality of the guns, PLUS any problems we knew or heard of on the guns.
Your whole claim stems from TOTW once saying the guns were "Made in India" to now being called "by East India Company." If anything the "by East India Company" is now further to the front of their advertising pages than the "made in India" used to be, correct? IOW, it is now on the second page where it used to be back on the 4th or 5th page? Anyone with a lick of sense KNOWS that a gun "by East India Company" was made in India, yet you discount that. I don't know if the "by East India Company" was a typo or poor grammar and neither do you, yet you go shrugging that off to state they are being deceptive.
Of course, you and everyone here has the right to their own opinion. My opinion is that I would be ashamed to state something like that without better proof.
Gus
The guns sold by Sears, Wards, Western Auto, etc. under their own names normally did not have as good of wood and polish/finish of the metal parts as the SAME guns sold by the gun companies. Yes, they worked the same, BUT they were not as high of quality as the same models sold by the gun companies. You do remember that, don't you?
I started working in what was called "The Navy Arms Booth" at the NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships in the Spring of 1974. Navy Arms did not actually rent a booth until the mid 1980's in their own name.
I remember what was said in very derogatory terms about the Navy Arms Eye-tal-yun guns in the 70's when most people who did well in the competitions still shot originals. It was many years before Navy Arms told anyone that some of their guns were made in Japan. Navy Arms did sell some fine guns and those were usually made by Zoli, Pedersoli, Euroarms and some of the Japanese guns, but they also sold lower quality guns by other manufacturers at various times. Shall we even go into how they bought the Parker Hale name and then the guns went WAY DOWN in quality as they first used real PH barrels and Italian parts until they ran out of real PH barrels and finally ALL Italian Parts? They didn't make that clear either. Shall we talk about the really poor quality Smith Carbines that Navy Arms stamped their name on and the barrels were LARGER in bore size at the muzzle than the breech, really bad clean out screws and other problems? It was actually the guy who ran the Navy Arms booth at the NSSA shoots who saved Navy Arms on those guns. Bobby Hoyt got flooded with folks having those guns relined.
Now when WE sold the guns, we told customers WHO made the guns, WHERE they were made AND the relative quality of the guns, PLUS any problems we knew or heard of on the guns.
Your whole claim stems from TOTW once saying the guns were "Made in India" to now being called "by East India Company." If anything the "by East India Company" is now further to the front of their advertising pages than the "made in India" used to be, correct? IOW, it is now on the second page where it used to be back on the 4th or 5th page? Anyone with a lick of sense KNOWS that a gun "by East India Company" was made in India, yet you discount that. I don't know if the "by East India Company" was a typo or poor grammar and neither do you, yet you go shrugging that off to state they are being deceptive.
Of course, you and everyone here has the right to their own opinion. My opinion is that I would be ashamed to state something like that without better proof.
Gus
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
BTW: did you know the East India Company was closed on January 1st 1874?
Just sayin'...
Ike
Just sayin'...
Ike
Thanks Gus, I understand mass marketing and branding...
I also understand what "Made in India" means, and so does everyone else. Which is why Track apprently stopped using it. No-one knows what "East India Company" means. Including you and Ike if you were being intellectually honest about this. Using that name, in my opinion, is probably more deceptive than saying nothing about where it's made anymore.
So, why don't you just start importing "original, new-in-box, Hudson Bay Company" trade muskets. Why not? I mean, everyone would just know they are modern reproductions made for North Americans in Europe, right?
I understand that above-average participants may instantly see through it but I'm surprised and disappointed in you guys defending this obvious charade against our community by Track. It's really quite disgusting to me. They're seeing what they can get away with to make a quick buck. But that lack of integrity applies to everything....
I also understand what "Made in India" means, and so does everyone else. Which is why Track apprently stopped using it. No-one knows what "East India Company" means. Including you and Ike if you were being intellectually honest about this. Using that name, in my opinion, is probably more deceptive than saying nothing about where it's made anymore.
So, why don't you just start importing "original, new-in-box, Hudson Bay Company" trade muskets. Why not? I mean, everyone would just know they are modern reproductions made for North Americans in Europe, right?
I understand that above-average participants may instantly see through it but I'm surprised and disappointed in you guys defending this obvious charade against our community by Track. It's really quite disgusting to me. They're seeing what they can get away with to make a quick buck. But that lack of integrity applies to everything....
Track has a real problem with their repro, antique, firearms listing, regardless of the origin of the piece, Alden. (imho). I regularly see home built rifles, with a very poorly fit flint-lock to the mortise, or an improperly shaped mortise, or both...but with a large amount of embellishment in the form of stock carvings. They are priced on the site often for more than a couple thousand dollars...which, if they were as honest as I would be if I were in charge of the pricing, they would be offered for less or refused for sale. The lock to mortise fit is a basic skill, as is the symmetric shaping of the shape of the mortise panel... and no amount of embellishment can atone for a poor or haphazard fit or shape in that area. Again (imho).
So, in my opinion, there are some builders who are buying pre-shaped stocks, who have failed to understand that especially to the rear of the lock, that shape and the amount of wood, needs to be reduced. YET, those rifles sell to what I consider ill informed buyers who don't know that they have bought a longrifle with a fundamental building flaw. (Unless of course the piece is a copy of an original with the same lock panel dimensions) Cosmetic, yes, but the high prices are due to the cosmetic appearance of the rifle.
However, it is also true that any buyer may call and ask Track of The Wolf about any of their consignment guns offered for sale. It's also true that one may return any piece that upon arrival and inspection, IF it does not meet the buyer's expectations. I've done both, and the process is easily done.
Track does not produce the rifles, but in fact merely lists the guns with a price asked for by the seller, plus a fee added by Track as they are a business. So who is dishonest, the builder who is asking what I would say is a vastly inflated price for an improperly made item, or should Track be "policing" the asking price? :idunno:
A buyer shares in some part with the responsibility of understanding what is being bought, and ONLY if the buyer can gain no further information, and is prohibited from a return for full price, would your complaint be valid. Again, my opinion. "Never buy a pig in a poke," I believe is the correct phrase that applies. So does Caveat emptor..."Let the buyer beware".
The same is true when ordering a black powder gun or rifle made complete in the USA from American made parts. There are examples cited on this forum of American builders taking years to build, not answering emails nor phone calls, and delivering guns not made to order, as well as guns improperly breeched, etc. I have experienced this, and it was a lot easier to send back a poorly made gun to Track than it was to get a response from one of the American builders.
The moral of the story was and is and probably always will be Buyer Beware.
LD
So, in my opinion, there are some builders who are buying pre-shaped stocks, who have failed to understand that especially to the rear of the lock, that shape and the amount of wood, needs to be reduced. YET, those rifles sell to what I consider ill informed buyers who don't know that they have bought a longrifle with a fundamental building flaw. (Unless of course the piece is a copy of an original with the same lock panel dimensions) Cosmetic, yes, but the high prices are due to the cosmetic appearance of the rifle.
However, it is also true that any buyer may call and ask Track of The Wolf about any of their consignment guns offered for sale. It's also true that one may return any piece that upon arrival and inspection, IF it does not meet the buyer's expectations. I've done both, and the process is easily done.
Track does not produce the rifles, but in fact merely lists the guns with a price asked for by the seller, plus a fee added by Track as they are a business. So who is dishonest, the builder who is asking what I would say is a vastly inflated price for an improperly made item, or should Track be "policing" the asking price? :idunno:
A buyer shares in some part with the responsibility of understanding what is being bought, and ONLY if the buyer can gain no further information, and is prohibited from a return for full price, would your complaint be valid. Again, my opinion. "Never buy a pig in a poke," I believe is the correct phrase that applies. So does Caveat emptor..."Let the buyer beware".
The same is true when ordering a black powder gun or rifle made complete in the USA from American made parts. There are examples cited on this forum of American builders taking years to build, not answering emails nor phone calls, and delivering guns not made to order, as well as guns improperly breeched, etc. I have experienced this, and it was a lot easier to send back a poorly made gun to Track than it was to get a response from one of the American builders.
The moral of the story was and is and probably always will be Buyer Beware.
LD
Well LD, let's default to it as a matter of common law. The buyer is not expected to be an expert while Track would clearly be held to be; their witholding pertinent information, and arguably misleading buyers, obviates the transaction if it isn't tantamount to fraud.
As for price, um, you get what you negotiate. That's NOT such an issue unless you were not told the the truth: see above.
By the way I've returned a gun to Track: it was an India-made pistol whose lateral sear was so dubious that they, in turn, shipped it back to the consignor with a refusal to relist it.
As for price, um, you get what you negotiate. That's NOT such an issue unless you were not told the the truth: see above.
By the way I've returned a gun to Track: it was an India-made pistol whose lateral sear was so dubious that they, in turn, shipped it back to the consignor with a refusal to relist it.
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Funny, how a question about a smoothbore turns into a rant about a supplier, and even a whole country!
I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Charleville, if I would be satisfied with a low-end replica musket. The price is fair, and you get what you pay for. I have an India made musket that works just fine. I proofed it myself, with a double overload, and it shoots a very good group and is very dependable. However; my next smoothbore, if there is one, will be a high-end gun, costing 3-4 times what I payed for the India made gun.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Charleville, if I would be satisfied with a low-end replica musket. The price is fair, and you get what you pay for. I have an India made musket that works just fine. I proofed it myself, with a double overload, and it shoots a very good group and is very dependable. However; my next smoothbore, if there is one, will be a high-end gun, costing 3-4 times what I payed for the India made gun.
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Alden said:
Already mentioned some examples where Navy Arms did not control the quality of guns with their names on them.
Funny you should mention Traditions......
A quote and link showing the quote:
This historically accurate rifle, holder of the enviable status of “authentic for re-enactment use” from the American Revolutionary Brigade,.....
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/category/Pennsylvania-Rifle
Gee, sounds pretty good, eh? But just WHO OR WHAT is the American Revolutionary Brigade??!!!
It ain't the Brigade of the American Revolution. It ain't the British Brigade. The name can not be found easily on google NOR in lists of reenactor organizations.
Now of course there may be such an Organization, but I can't find it...................
Gus
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Alden said:
You have not proved TOTW is "withholding pertinent information." That is your opinion.
If one asks them via phone or written communication if the gun was made in India and THEN they refused to tell or covered it up, that would be something completely different. Of course, you have not shown this to be the case.
While I agree guns should be listed by where they were actually made, a look around the web shows pretty much the only that company that does that on every single gun is Dixie Gun Works. So in your opinion, are the rest of the gun sellers withholding pertinent information on where the guns were made?
Then you suggest it is "tantamount to fraud." Well, no, that also is just your opinion.
I find that surprising, when you noted they not only took back a gun and refunded the money on a gun you returned, AND refused to re-list it. That is not the actions of a company dealing in a fraudulent manner.
Gus
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
okawbow said:
May I throw in, some of the models - no, sorry - MOST of the models that came from India and are offered either in the US or in Germnay or elswhere, are NOT listed by other makers like Pedersoli or Armi Sport (just to name two).
I have never seen an French 1728 nor a British LLP to be offered form any other source than the India market, if one does not want to (or could not) pay 12-1500 US$ plus tools plus money to build the thing (if one does not have the skills for it).
To summ that up, *I* am very happy with the India guns, cause they offering models you cannot get normally - especially over here. And I know my guns are safe for both live-firing and blank firing.
If I would think about buying the 1777 from TOTW and would be in doubt of anything they write, I would simply ask them to clear the dust.
Ike
Artificer said:
OMG...
"So, Mr. Wolf..."
"Please, your honor, call me Track o'The."
"MISTER WOLF, please explain WHY you STOPPED identifying your firearms that were made in India as such!"
A drowzy litigator would need only five minutes to rest the state's case, GUS. THAT'S my opinion.
As for the ARB, it is an "invitation-only" fraternity. It's like the Skull & Bones of The AWI. Members do not disclose themselves.
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I wonder; do all sellers identify the guns they sell as "Made in Italy", "Made in Spain", "Made in Japan", or even "Made in USA"?
Occasionally I see a gun listed as "Imported".
Occasionally I see a gun listed as "Imported".
And I wonder if any other nation than India's blackpowder guns are so universally and deservedly recognized as below average, inferior, if not actually dangerous?
OK, no I don't. Neither does anyone else who has an opinion on the subject. Which is why resellers are not disclosing this pertinent information to prospective victims... I mean customers.
OK, no I don't. Neither does anyone else who has an opinion on the subject. Which is why resellers are not disclosing this pertinent information to prospective victims... I mean customers.
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Alden said:
The gun is identified twice in the pages as "by East India Company." No case for a litigator.
Further, you have not shown evidence/proof this was an intentional act to mislead or deceive. Your opinion is only that, opinion.
Would it be correct to say that the ARB was a bunch of intellectual idiots, somehow taking a pay off from Traditions, or withholding pertinent information on those Traditions guns; because those guns could not possibly earn high marks of authenticity from any reasonable/responsible historic minded group for the AWI?
I would not do that without checking to see the ARB actually HAD made such a recommendation before stating such things. If the group is as you have mentioned, I extremely doubt they would have given such a recommendation.
Gus
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