Charleville

[Shine]

Well next week im going to look at a charleville. As of yet im not sure if it is a Pedersoli or Miruko. I do know it is 69 caliber. This is one gun or caliber ive never owned. So what are you guys experiences with them. And what loads should I try.
Thanks
Rick

 

[Rifleman1776]

None here. I have a Bess. Just make sure it is not in India

 

[Alden]

I LOVE the 1777 Charleville. Little late for AWI but so nice (at least my Pedersoli). The lock, the cutout cheekrest, the trigger guard, the long, graceful, barrel...

The whole gun is a classic military pleasure to handle. And don't forget the bayonet -- de rigueur!

 

[Wes/Tex]

Some of the older 63/66 guns from Navy Arms were pretty good too. The M.1777 continued on being fairly faithfully copied until the model 1842 percussion came into use here. A number of the European militaries continued using them, or their various improvements, for as long. Even the much ballyhooed M.1809 Potsdam musket was an improved variation with guilt-in flash guard and rear sight...even if a bit primitive. They're a good design, although the British would argue differently saying the SLP & India pattern had better knock-down due to larger bore, they could use the slightly smaller French balls in their guns, etc. Basically, to suit military tactics of the time and for playing & hunting now, they're hard to beat.

 

[Shine]

So tell me the visual differences between the 66 and the 77. I don't want anything I cant place in use during the revolution. The dished out stock was that only done on the 77.

 

[Alden]

Sorry, don't remember the '66 details much but pretty sure there's no "dish" -- lept over it for a 1728/46 Marine myself.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

They're a good design, although the British would argue differently

Actually the French musket was a great design, hence the variations and adaptations across Europe. The only two, true "improvements" (imho) in it were when the Spanish opted for cast barrel bands insted of forged iron or steel (cheaper and easier to produce) and the Germans put a front sight post on the barrel instead of the front barrel band.

The British design was superior for the British for their ease of production... once you get armories producing certain patterns flung far and wide across the globe, it's not so easy doing a drastic change to the design, and for the Brits it was also cheaper than even a musket with brass barrel bands. A good musket that could be produced in the tens of thousands worked for the British Empire.

Same idea in WWII with the M4 Sherman... not the best suspension, not the best gun, not the best armor, but all good, and they built a lot of them!

LD

 

[Shine]

Also is 800 a fair price for a used miruko or pedersoli. If it's not to bubbaed up

 

[satwel]

I was in a gun store in NH last month and they had a new Pedersoli for $1400. IMHO $800 is a fair price for a Charlie in good condition. I was seriously considering a Navy Arms charleville for $850 a month ago. It was in pretty good condition. I don't come across many used ones and when I do they are usually over $900. I'm kicking myself now for not buying it.

 

[bigburk]

Some of you may find this interesting. I recently found the receipt from March of 1991 when I ordered a Charleville musket from Dixie Gun Works. The musket (Japanese)cost $450, round balls $12.75 per hundred and American flints $2 per dozen. Oh yeah, shipping was $10.
When I received the musket I took it to the range, shot it twice, and put it away. Only this year have I been spending some time with the old girl and I must admit, she's a great date! Shooting a smooth bore rock lock is quite a change from caplock rifles but I am having a great time learning.
I can't really get my head down far enough on the stock to get a good sight picture but given enough time I think I could kill a basketball at 25 yards.
Hope you enjoy yours.

 

[Alden]

Two words: buck shot!

 

[Wes/Tex]

So tell me the visual differences between the 66 and the 77. I don't want anything I cant place in use during the revolution. The dished out stock was that only done on the 77.

These are the India made things from MH but give you a general idea. The 1766 was a flat lock plate and cock...it was a lightened version of the 1763 which looked similar.
http://www.militaryheritage.com/images/flintlock_charleville_ musket_1.jpg

The model 1777 was a wee bit beefier, but had a brass(non corrosion)pan and hollowed check rest on the stock. Other differences run to layout of barrel bands and whether they were held with screws or pins.
http://www.militaryheritage.com/images/french napoleonic musket 1777_1.jpg

 

[nit wit]

Hence dishing out the stock!
NW

 

[rickystl]

YES! That's a good price if in decent condition. As mentioned above, they tend to go for around $900.00+ in used, good condition. And they sell quick. About a year ago there was one for sale at an auction site and the barrel was marked "Navy Arms". It looked to be in unfired condition. Went for $1,100.00. Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[crockett]

As has been mentioned the 1777 is actually a little late for the AWI but for most groups I'd assume that is probably the pattern most commonly seen. I'm working from memory here but I think originally the "Committee of Safety Musket" was a Brown Bess clone but cost about $10 to make while we could buy some of the earlier French muskets for around $6, a pretty good saving. Back when I was researching the subject there were some slight differences in the stock shape, etc. on the various French models. If absolute accuracy is important, probably best to do the research before buying anything.

 

[Wes/Tex]

French weapons and military fashions changed about as fast and furious as officials fell in and out of favor at court. Each felt required to change something major or minor just to prove they were "johnny on the spot"...got rather hard to follow without a program. :wink: :haha:

 

[cullen1780]

I've put over 3300 rounds and probably half as many blanks through the Dixie/Miroku that I bought used in'92. Replaced the mainspring once, dressed the frizzen twice and have had no other problems that weren't solved with a ball puller.

I generally shoot a fouling charge then load a .670 bare ball over 70 gr of 2F until the bore is too fouled to load easily, then dry brush the bore and scrape the breach. I expect to break briquettes at 15 yds and clay birds at 30 with this loading practice.

 

[Ken Cormier]

Wow now I want one LOL

 

[Alden]

There are still options these days, maybe more in some respects than prior decades. Regardless, never look down your nose upon a Charleville (1795 Springfield for that matter)...

...unless of course your aquiring your target.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

In my opinion, $800 may be right at the top end or even high, for a Japanese bess or charleville in good condition (it would be a good price if a bayonet for the musket came with it); that price is more in keeping with a used, Pedersoli product. I know some fellow bought one for $1100.00..., but that just proves P.T. Barnum was right. Dixie offers the Charleville in a kit... for $40 more.

Folks out there on the internet think since the current factory produced muskets are so high priced, that a used copy, aka Japanese, is some sort of collector's copy. They forget, it's not Italian made, so was never proofed, there is no replacement parts source for them, and no manufacturer's warranty. If it doesn't have a bayonet, then you're looking at buying an Italian one, and having that adjusted, so that's $150+. Don't forget shipping on the musket and later, the bayonet.

Plus, like it our not, the Indian made muskets have made a huge dent in demand, so it's a buyer's market.



LD