Chatellerault Bolt Action 198

[Wolf75]

This is one of the more interesting guns left to me by my Dad, it certainly looks nice on the wall. He asked me to do some research on it years ago, early internet days, and a gentleman we corresponded with suggested in may have been a prototype Chassepot. Maybe there is more information on it in today's world?

 

[Wolf75]

Did I post this under the wrong section? I'm just noticing all the different sections.

 

[WalnutRed]

Probably a Model 1862 Chassepot. Does the hammer have to be on half cock to open the bolt? That and rear locking lugs are the main difference between the 1862 and 1866 models. But the 1865 cartouche on the stock probably also means it's the 1862 version. Technically not a muzzle loading firearm which is likely why you've not received a response on this. Very interesting find though.

 

[Wolf75]

Probably a Model 1862 Chassepot. Does the hammer have to be on half cock to open the bolt? That and rear locking lugs are the main difference between the 1862 and 1866 models. But the 1865 cartouche on the stock probably also means it's the 1862 version. Technically not a muzzle loading firearm which is likely why you've not received a response on this. Very interesting find though.

That would be a yes on the hammer needing to be at half-cock to open the bolt. Can you explain what type of load was used in this, with the bolt action, yet still a percussion cap? So many questions I should have asked my dad while he was still alive.

 

[WalnutRed]

Think of it as the bolt action version of an early Sharps that used paper cartridge's. You opened the bolt, inserted a paper cartridge, closed the bolt and capped the nipple.

 

[Wolf75]

Think of it as the bolt action version of an early Sharps that used paper cartridge's. You opened the bolt, inserted a paper cartridge, closed the bolt and capped the nipple.

Thanks so much! You've been very helpful! Would those have been "roll your own" cartridges, or did the gun manufacturer actually produce them? It seems the cartridges would have been a little delicate to deal with in a battle situation, but maybe the paper was more robust than I imagine. Again, thanks for your help.

 

[WalnutRed]

They would have been factory made paper cartridges . This was the very end of the paper cartridge era which is why only a few hundred of these rifles were made.

 

[Wolf75]

They would have been factory made paper cartridges . This was the very end of the paper cartridge era which is why only a few hundred of these rifles were made.

With that being said, not that I planned on it, but there is no way of shooting this in today's world? And how would one place a value on it?

 

[Kansas Jake]

A very interesting and rare find.

 

[WalnutRed]

You would have to determine bore size and find correct diameter projectiles. Once you have the bullets you can buy kits to make paper cartridges. I've never seen one of these rifles offered for sale so have no idea pricing.

 

[bpd303]

Did I post this under the wrong section? I'm just noticing all the different sections.

Yep, don't worry I'm reasonably sure one of the mod's will move it.

 

[Sam squanch]

I wouldn’t shoot it. That would be worth BIG bucks to a French military rifle collector, if something broke or it blew up you would be out some money.

 

[Eterry]

If it is in a good a shape as it appears on here, I'd have to load it with a reduced load and film it while shooting. Be sure and wear goggles, paper cartridges were not known for a tight seal.

 

[Wolf75]

If it is in a good a shape as it appears on here, I'd have to load it with a reduced load and film it while shooting. Be sure and wear goggles, paper cartridges were not known for a tight seal.

That sounds a little dicey to me , even if I knew what I was doing!!

 

[WalnutRed]

I'll go against the flow here. I do agree that I would be hesitant to shoot this particular rifle due to rarity and condition. However In the mid 1800s French metal work was some of the best in the world. I'd not be concerned about the design of the rifle or quality of materials and/or workmanship. Warning: These comments are meant to apply to a rifle of this design in general, not your particular rifle because I've not actually seen your rifle.

Paper cartridges' for muskets and rifle muskets were of sturdier construction than those made for handguns. In my experience paper cartridges for muzzle loading muskets or rifle muskets were made one of two ways. Either tapered towards the back so that when the cartridge was loaded completely the paper tore exposing the powder or the cartridge was torn, powder poured down the barrel then bullet and wadding rammed down on top of the powder. There was too much risk of the flash from a fouled nipple not igniting the charge otherwise.

This rifle should have a rough spot on the face of the bolt to tear the back of the paper cartridge. It may also have a tapered chamber or be designed that the projectile rests against the rifling so that the back of the cartridge, with proper powder charge, is held firmly and in proper position to tear. In theory a loose powder charge could act the same as a ball not seated all the way down onto the powder charge in a muzzle loading rifle and actually cause more chamber pressure. Remember though there were a couple variations of this trial rifle and the spot intended to tear the paper might not have been on the first variation.

In my opinion, the risk to a rifle of this design IN GOOD WORKING ORDER is in not properly cleaning it after shooting. Not in the shooting of the rifle itself with proper load. Remember, the last person to actually fire this rifle was probably trained how to correctly disassemble and clean the rifle by the French Army in the mid 1800s. And a strong YES to normal shooting precautions like shooting glasses and hearing protection. There were very good reasons Napoleon III discarded the the idea of paper cartridges in the trial guns and the French adopted a a very similar rifle that used a metallic case.

 

[Wolf75]

I'll go against the flow here. I do agree that I would be hesitant to shoot this particular rifle due to rarity and condition. However In the mid 1800s French metal work was some of the best in the world. I'd not be concerned about the design of the rifle or quality of materials and/or workmanship. Warning: These comments are meant to apply to a rifle of this design in general, not your particular rifle because I've not actually seen your rifle.

Paper cartridges' for muskets and rifle muskets were of sturdier construction than those made for handguns. In my experience paper cartridges for muzzle loading muskets or rifle muskets were made one of two ways. Either tapered towards the back so that when the cartridge was loaded completely the paper tore exposing the powder or the cartridge was torn, powder poured down the barrel then bullet and wadding rammed down on top of the powder. There was too much risk of the flash from a fouled nipple not igniting the charge otherwise.

This rifle should have a rough spot on the face of the bolt to tear the back of the paper cartridge. It may also have a tapered chamber or be designed that the projectile rests against the rifling so that the back of the cartridge, with proper powder charge, is held firmly and in proper position to tear. In theory a loose powder charge could act the same as a ball not seated all the way down onto the powder charge in a muzzle loading rifle and actually cause more chamber pressure. Remember though there were a couple variations of this trial rifle and the spot intended to tear the paper might not have been on the first variation.

In my opinion, the risk to a rifle of this design IN GOOD WORKING ORDER is in not properly cleaning it after shooting. Not in the shooting of the rifle

itself with proper load. Remember, the last person to actually fire this rifle was probably trained how to correctly disassemble and clean the rifle by the French Army in the mid 1800s. And a strong YES to normal shooting precautions like shooting glasses and hearing protection. There were very good reasons Napoleon III discarded the the idea of paper cartridges in the trial guns and the French adopted a a very similar rifle that used a metallic case.

 

[Wolf75]

View attachment 377025

I didn't do a very good job of inserting these pics, but just wanted to include a few shots of the bolt action

 

[Sam squanch]

Maybe the army museum in Paris would want this, any collector of French arms would. Interesting transitional development in army rifles.