Cheap import locks?

[ebiggs1]

I keep reading of a statement made by certain members of cheap import locks. Besides the Lyman/Traditions, Italian or Spanish, made versions, what else or other 'brands' are they referring to?
I have not run into any but that is no cause to believe there are none. :hmm:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Some of the early Ultra-Hi flint locks were really inferior Japanese stuff, and some pretty good. There was also some limited amount of Chinese wares back in the early 1970's. Usually, the frizzens and lock interiors weren't properly hardened so they rarely went off, three piece barrels with octagon breech areas, and round barrels threaded to the octagon about ten inches from the breech. Some Belgian stuff was pretty bad also.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Agree with Zimmer.....
However as long as there has been a gun history there have been inferior items sold and traded. Just because a lock, or whatever, came to the U.S. on ships 'back when' does not mean they were quality.
Buyer beware started in caves.

 

My understanding is that there are some Chinese companies now producing knock offs of Silers, and some of the other more popular American made locks. Tell tale sign is that it goes "Crick" "Crick" when it gets cocked to full cock. :blah: Actually soft frizzen is biggest give away, and many don't have a fly.

bill

 

[paulvallandigham]

In the early days, Dixie offered an " Ashmore " marked lock made God-knows-where! Some worked. Most didn't. I still see them from time to time on gun show tables with ridiculous prices to catch the unknowing. There were certainly others, and you run across those, too, from time to time.


All kinds of stuff were imported and sold by fly-by-night firms that might be around for a year or two, working out of a P.O. Box.

I still see some of it at Friendship from time to time. There is a very small market for people wanting to repair a lock they own but need a replacement part. If you know how to case harden parts, and have the acetylene torch to heat and change the shape of hammers, or frizzens, you can make do. Sometimes the best thing to do with these soft parts is to use them ONLY for a pattern so that you can make a new part out of better steels. :hmm: :surrender: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

 

[nmdd]

Tell tale sign is that it goes "Crick" "Crick" when it gets cocked to full cock.

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[ebiggs1]

Do any of those have a brand name associated with them?

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Unfortunately there are no hard and fast rules. Some cheap lock work very well others are more trouble than they are worth.

It never hurts to try before buy, a day at the range can tell you a lot.

Reputable is better and custom lock makers are best. They stand behind their work.

 

[ebiggs1]

Yeah, that may be true but guys on this board have their favorites and lump the rest into the “cheap” category. When asked they are unable or unwilling to name them by brand.

 

[Kilchis Jack]

Funny how things work out! Cheap locks bought from Dixie Gun Works, back in the 1960's were the only thing this child could afford to buy. I was 14 years old, cash was real hard to come by. I put in hay, peeled cascara bark, picked black berries and picked up beer bottles to make enough to buy a 28 gauge barrel, a $12.95 lock and a piece of walnut for a stock. I wanted a muzzleloader more than anything.
I carved, hacked whittled the stock, inletting the barrel, lock and trigger, and behold once tied in a tire and proof shot a few times, I had a workable gun. Now the notches in the lock didn't hold up long, so I read up on hardening, and found a product called Kasenite that solved my problem. I also learned about proper breech plug fit etc. and finally ended up buying a South Bend lathe and became a machinist. All because of cheap locks. Jack

 

[Dphar]

I keep reading of a statement made by certain members of cheap import locks. Besides the Lyman/Traditions, Italian or Spanish, made versions, what else or other 'brands' are they referring to?
I have not run into any but that is no cause to believe there are none. :hmm:

Since its been gone over before.
If I have to explain it, you won't get it anyway.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Yeah, that may be true but guys on this board have their favorites and lump the rest into the “cheap” category. When asked they are unable or unwilling to name them by brand.

Its all relative.
Compared to a best quality English lock 1750-1850 everything on the market is low quality
Chambers locks are good, Davis is good, L&R has good designs but execution is sometimes lacking.
ALL the mass produced "factory" locks are worse. Used to be that virtually everything from Italy was at best suspect. THEN they learned people were actually shooting the things. Quality improved. Cowboy Action shooters shooting a LOT forced further improvements.
The Pedersoli Sharps is actually a copy of the Shiloh not an original. They always had good barrels but the rest was pretty flaky but BPCR silhouette helped improve these.

It may come as a shock to people here but even a low quality POS will often go "bang" everytime. This not an indicator of quality.
BTW I also started with a cheap DGW lock in the 60s. But I switched to Russ Hamm locks after one DGW. These were much better but had problems that could produce accidental discharges if not further tuned.
The traditional side lock cannot be made by unskilled workers without corner cutting.
But people think a best quality lock should cost 100-140 bucks. In reality a best quality lock would cost 250-300 if made to the level of a 1810 Joe Manton lock.
But Americans won't pay this much for a lock.
So if you want a good lock that will work properly by a Chambers or a Davis. L&R has some excellent designs but they may require a couple of hours of skilled labor after they arrive.
Remember that the locks of the past were made by people who passed through a lock filers apprentice program in Europe.
Modern mass produced locks like TC are designed to be assembled by relatively unskilled labor. So there are shortcuts.
But lots of people like TCs so making a statement like this opens the person making the statement to attacks.
Invariably by people who could not make a lock from scratch but are "experts" because they can swap parts in a lock designed to be assembled by anyone off the street with 15 minutes training.

Dan

 

[Grullaguy]

I got a CVA HAwken a few months back. I really love the rifle, but I am less endeared with the trigger and lock assemblies.

Almost every time I shoot the rifle for the afternoon, I have to adjust something to get it working right before the next outing. There is some obvious wear in the sear for the set trigger and the transfer bar which releases the hammer. Also,for some reason, the front trigger likes to vary between 5 and 25 lbs of pull between consecutive shots.

I am dealing on a Pedersolli replacement rifle and really hope the deal goes through.

 

[ebiggs1]

What you are saying is, for instance a TC (you brought it up) that works perfectly and fires every time for thousands of shots is junk or a cheap lock. Because it wasn't made by hand by a studied locksmith? That is simply ridiculous
You, personal y may not like it and you may not like it's looks but what else does it have to do?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Most Cheap imported locks I have seen are not labeled as to source. I see them in piles, or in boxeds at Friendship. Asking the dealers where the locks are made usually results in no Further information. Some of these locks are sold by weight, and dealers buy them so cheap that they can afford to have them around for a long time. When a sale is made, its because some part will replace a part on another lock.

I don't think anyone here is reluctant to name "names" when they are known.

In the 50 years I have been looking over "STUFF" I have seen locks accredited to Belgium makers- names unknown-- and to companies in Spain- also not named. Much of this stuff was made for sale in Colonial Africa, when natives were not allowed to own modern guns for hunting, or so I have been told. Altho many colonies were "freed" beginning right after WWII, many were still under colonial administration well into the 1960s.

Most- but not all, by any means-- of these cheap locks will appear Blued. A lot of back-action locks we generally associate with shotguns, but appear on a lot of cheap rifles sold in both Africa, and S.America, will be among this category. Sometimes, by comparing a specific lock to pictures shown in old Dixie Gun Works Catalogs, you can make a reasoned estimate a to a source. :hmm: :thumbsup:

Oh, If you look at 3 samples of these locks carefully, you can see different dimensions in the parts used. They are "hand-fitted" by semi-skilled labor, and a lot of parts will not interchange. That is one way I tell I am looking at a cheap lock.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Jack
That is a great story. You are to be commended for showing such determination and ingenuity as a youngster. :applause:
That story would make a thread all by itself.
Yer name seems faintly familiar. I'll betcha we have met on the trail sometime in the past.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Agree and disagree.
An excellent lock could probably be made for an affordable price by modern manufacturing methods. Problem is, we are a relatively small market. Millions of locks are not needed.
I was once shown some locks and triggers made hundreds of years ago by Lynton MacKinzie. There were masterful, beautifully crafted items. For an ml lover to see these was exciting. The downside was I could not take them home with me. One of those locks or trigger sets would cost a great deal than an couple hundred dollars to make today. I doubt we will ever see anything made again that would match the greatness of those items.

 

[Dphar]

What you are saying is, for instance a TC (you brought it up) that works perfectly and fires every time for thousands of shots is junk or a cheap lock. Because it wasn't made by hand by a studied locksmith? That is simply ridiculous
You, personal y may not like it and you may not like it's looks but what else does it have to do?

Whatever.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

PS see the part of my post about attacks.
If a sacred cow is gored people can get upset.

Like many things to do with firearms it requires someone to point to the problem for people to see it. Even then it often goes over the person's head
Like firearms shot with corrosive substitutes. They would assure me that the gun is not pitted, until I point to the pits. It had removed the blue from one and the owner had it reblued right over the pits but swore it was not pitted. Until I pointed them out.
After a few decades it gets tiring but people need to have enough information to make informed choices.
The Russ Hamm locks I mentioned above were not cheap locks costing as much as a rifle barrel at the time, $45 for flint in late 1973 when a Lyman "Plains rifle"in 45 caliber was $175, a Douglas barrel was $35. But of course the 175 dollar Lyman had no shortcuts. But the Hamm locks were STILL FLAWED because the people/person assembling them was NOT properly trained or did not know how to properly set up a fly or did not take the time. The locks were also durable. However, once I LEARNED, by experience where I could easily have shot someone with an AD, I then had to train myself on how to set up a fly in a lock.
If a 19 year old kid in Iowa can figure it out why could not the people making the locks?
For one thing it was impossible to LOOK at the parts and see a problem.

Dan

 

[zimmerstutzen]

TC is the sacred cow around this locale. To an extent it is like the brand loyalty to some auto makers. It is also, to an extent, like a guy who has only ever driven a Dodge K car getting into a Lincoln. Both will get you to the next county and beyond. But there just is no comparison.

Let a Tc fan shoot a good custom gun and most can tell the difference right off. Some honestly can't tell the difference. Some will lie cheat and steal to avoid noticing the difference.

Just human nature. Even among good locks there are noticeable differences. A lock tuned by a pro is so much better than most.

I paid $40 in 1978, for a brand new Markwell Arms 45 cal Hawken. The percussion lock interior crumbled after the 5th or 6th shot. Learned the hard way. Junk through and through.