Just to stir the pot. Their was a trade gun recovered from Traverse Bay in Northern Michigan. That just might throw a wrench into all this debate.
We also have to remember our knowledge is based on surviving examples. Last but not least you can write anything in a book. Doesn't mean it's 100% accurate. It's only the interpretation of the writer or his knowledge at the time...JMHO
Our knowledge is not just based on surviving examples. Many survivors could have been modified during their period of use. Many, unfortunately a great many have been modified or restored more recently.
The Shrieck * Rifle has been continuously modified since the 18th Century.
That rifle has been so modified that who knows what it’s original configuration was.
"Their was a trade gun recovered from Traverse Bay in Northern Michigan, please explain more what this means or why it is important. thanks??
It means a relic was found with a “short” barrel in Michigan.
I have to ask,
What about all the long barreled guns found in rivers, wrecks and graves?
My information comes directly from old period records, not some old relic in the bottom of a lake.
Yep
in the gunsmith of Grenvile county he did a introduction on the rifes.He did go into the short rifles and from what he found there were a lot of thease used.Of couse there were the smooth bores and even rifles as well,so there were short guns smooth and rifles,George washinton has fifty bucks county style made for Hands calavary,,there were not real short but all were .50 caliber and 38 inch lonf barrels ,the officers were a bit fancy wood and had pathboxes dont know if all had that ,,but they had them,,all i know!!haha!!
I read through that.
Pete is all over the place. He starts with saying Continental Early German guns can
have very long barrels, implying that the long barreled Longrifle is not unique.
He also states later that short-barrels were “ common” early on in the colonies.
He uses examples like this from period documents.....
Lost....One German Rifle with a 2’ barrel.
Trade list.....One dozen rifles with 4’ barrels.
A rifle made with a 41” barrel.
Hmmmm.
Just from above from his own sources, there’s one short barred rifle and 13 long barreled rifles. 12 of these have 48” barrels.
^^^
Going just by this info we can conclude that the 24” barreled rifle is the anomaly or less common.
Pete goes on with this very profound statements....
“On the other hand, the rifles used by or intended for Indians were inclined to have long barrels.
This is perfectly logical as the Indian was used to a long barreled trade gun”.
Later on....
“Since the Indian was used to a long barreled gun, I believe they demanded long barreled rifles from gunsmiths.”
Pete also makes it clear that this is his opinion.
He uses terms like may, like, likely.....
Again he is all over the place.
Obviously you missed the part about people writing articles back then.
But the gun has been determined that the barrel wasn't cut off. The barrel was 29 1/2 inches. Also it was carefully studied by experts with far more knowledge than most of us.
Also I have seen the gun and an exact copy of it is at the Fort in Mackinac City. Last I never have had the thought that just because I haven't seen it. It doesn't exist. But to each their own...
How do they know it was not cut off?
I curios, how do they know this?
Do they have documentation from the manufacturer, the shipper, the trader?
How can you tell from a relic gun if it was made that was or shortened by a gunsmith in it’s period of use?
Do records happen to be more real than an actual pirearm ?
Very interesting !
Blitz
Yes if the survivor has been modified or mistakenly dated.
Any body for any reason can write something and it becomes more real than the actual object ?
If on can percieve being on the moon and writed about it , the it is real. At least to him.
Are we getting into the third eye realm here ?
I for one am a bit more pragmatic,but will say there are possibilities one way or the other. quantum physics anyone ?
Blitz
I’m not into all that devil stuff and I do not understand how the reference applies.
We are not talking about opinion pieces or made up stories that could date to that time, we are talking hard data from factories, shippers, traders and descriptions of lost guns or guns for sale.
Again, not opinion pieces or stories.
I have this book by Peter Alexander I believe. Alexander was a master gunsmith, proven,vetted considered one of the best. I would say his credentials are outstanding and his research accepted widely accepted and used, more so than that of self imposed forum experts. imho. If Peter Alexander said there were short rifles/smoothbores, then there were.
He’s all over the place.
What he really said pretty much agrees with Mike.
Pulling a gun from a body of water does not in any way determine when it was made. It has already been established that short barreled trade guns were made. That is recorded fact. That gun could have been made anywhere between the first quarter of the 19th century to the 1890s. And it has nothing to do with chopped guns.
Yep....
Period of use.
Misidentification
Modifications
Restorations
From this discussion we can deduce that long barreled trade guns were the norm and that’s straight from Alexander’s writing.
I'm done now. Have fun boys.
