Colt 61 Navy by Uberti.

[mec]

The 1861 Colt Navy incorporated the design and production changes of the 1860 Army to the Navy Caliber. Production ran from 1861-73 with about 38,000 being made. About one hundred were made with fluetted cylinders. At a glance, it is hard to tell it from the .44 army model but the cylinder is smaller in diameter and not rebated. Famous recipients of dressed up '61s include Horace Greeley and Phil Sheridan.

This one is a Uberti with BU marking indicating that it was made in 2004. It arrived with a rough action that completely smoothed out after about 50 rounds of fire and a number of dry functions. The trigger is a couple of ounces under 3 pounds and indexing is perfect with the bolt dropping near the beginning of the lead. I opened the hammer notch for greater visibility but no other sighing was necessary as it hit right on at 50 feet. I put a leather pad under the main spring- not necessary but I believe it will help spring life as it reduces the tension.

http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/18613.jpg
The locator pins at the bottom front of the frame were prone to fall out so, I staked them in. I also notice that there is no b/c gap and that one chamber mouth is a bit large than the others. It will allow partial thumb seating of a .375 ball but seems to get smaller as the ball is compressed. This made no difference either in accuracy or over the chronograph *

Loads were clocked as follows- 6 rounds each 85 gr ball:
22 Grain spout of pyrodex P 1046 fps extreme spread 36
22 Grains Goex FFFG 966 fps extreme spread 65
* 25 Grains Goex FFFG 915 fps extreme spread 119

* The looser chamber would not grip the ball with a full chamber of 25 gr.FFFG. Velocities were lower across the board than with the 22 Grain Spout. Something about the extra compression made better use of the powder or more firmly gripped the ball even in the correctly sized chambers.

With the shoulder stock mounted, the rig hit about 4" under point of aim. When I figured out the right amount of sight to hold up I did this:
http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/61navystocktarg.jpg
And managed to hit five of six cans from 25 yards. I also hit five of six with the stock removed and shooting two -handed.
www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/61navyfiveofsix.jpg

This one had more problems ( particularly the odd-sized chamber) than any of the other full-sized Ubertis of recent manufacture that I have shot. Nevertheless, all of the glitches were easily repaired or turned out to be inconsequential to function and accuracy.

 

[mec]

The extreme spread of the 25 fffg load is wrong. It was actually 59fps

 

[Gatofeo]

Interesting, Mec. I always enjoy your posts because they tell me all I need to know. It's aggravating to read a post that lacks crucial details. Guess I'm kind of a stickler, I suspect you're one too. ::
I've long thought to get an 1861 Colt. I love my 1860 Army and 1851 Navy and think that the 1861 might be the best of both worlds.
I'm awaiting delivery of a Gamma Model Chrony chronograph, with printer. Put a .380 Auto bullet through my old Chrony a while back ... lol.
I hope the chronograph will be here tomorrow, since UPS still delivers on federal holidays. Then, I'll have to wait for decent weather to start some projects in the wings.
At the moment the sun is shining and it's above freezing, with no snow on the ground, but the wind is blowing. Brrrrrr ...
I was pleased to hear that your Navy shot dead-on at 50 feet. This tells me that, perhaps, the manufacturers finally got a little smarter and started making taller than normal sights for their Colt clones. It's aggravating to shoot with a revolver that typically shoots high, and changing that requires replacing the sight.
Disconcerting about that oversized chamber, though. My Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy has chambers that are nearly a slip-fit with .375 inch balls. That's what originally prompted me to start using .380 inch balls.
Keep those posts coming. I always enjoy your photos. I need to learn how to do post photos as well, for occasional illustrations.
Thanks for an interesting report on the Uberti-made 1861 Colt.

 

[mec]

I killed a chronograph with a .44 magnum. One shot stop.
The uberti's have pretty large chambers and it irritates me that Hornady and speer won't sell .380 bullets. Odd though it may seem, with the seating depth available with 22 grains of black or pyrodex (vol), the chamber seems to grip the ball in the large mouthed chamber as well as in the others.maybe somebody rocked the reamer a bit. When we loaded up with 25 fffg, the wider chamber wouldn't grip the ball and it came out apple-bobbed on the end of the ram. We smacked a ball to fatten it up and shot it over the chronograph with the rest.

Have you managed to to a velocity comparison with several types of black powder? we have several cans of goex fffg and ffg but can't get any black around here. Its 100- 150 miles to the nearest place that has it and the local Cowboy action shooters buy it up as soon as it comes in. I hear some of the other powders are hotter than goex but don't have the where-with-all to find out. We did clock some old Dupont ffg in the 1924 can and it was a bit slower than goex ffg.

 

[Rat]

Ha ha I shot my Chrony with a .32acp, but managed to put it back together and get it working, although it does not always work "good". Kind of tells ya something about the .32 as a defense pistol though....would rather use a .36!!

Rat

 

[RussB]

Include me in that group that respects Mec's posts. Like you said, they are well written, and tell you what you need to know.


Good work Mec...... :redthumb:


Russ

 

[mec]

Thanx. I enjoy delving into these things and interacting on the forums. Kind of like a gun magazine without the ads and you can talk back to it.

 

[Keith]

I agree I always read your posts first when I see them.

I was a little confused by something you wrote, "we have several cans of goex fffg and ffg but can't get any black around here." Can't get any black what? Goex is black powder. There are mail order companies. I haven't tried that route yet, but a lot of the guys here swear by them. In the links part of the forum is a powder links section for distributors.

Anyway, nice work and as usual an informative post.

 

[montanadan]

MEC-Great post as usual, could you possibly do a comparison between PyrodexP, 3fg Goex, and 3fg Goex Pinnacle Powder? I have some Pinnacle on order in 2fg,and 3fg, if the wind ever gets below 40mph, I was going to do a comparison between,Pyro-P,APP-3fg,and Goex Pinnacle 3fg. I was thinking of using a couple of Cap-n-Ball, and two single shots.Maybe you have already done this?...Respectfully Montanadan

 

[mec]

I'll look forward to what you get with pinnacle. I will probably eventually order some of it as it is unlikely to come here.

As to availability of black powder. We do have a supply of Goex black powder but it was obtained by my shooting friend while he was a long haul truck driver. He would visit gunshops all over the United States and buy any that was on hand. We still have quite a bit of it left. We cannot get black powder in Waco, Texas without ordering it ourselves and paying the hazmat fees.

A few weeks ago, we compared a few rounds of .44s loaded with Goex FFG and some old Dupont in the 1924 can. The Goex was 60 fps faster, the spread was just about equal. Of course, the Dupont was60-80 years old at the least.

What I find with Pyrodex is that it usually produces higher velocities in revolvers and single shots than fffg goex but on rare occasions, goex clocks faster. American Pioneer is very low yield. In the larger calibers - .44 Dragooon/50 Pistol, Pyrodex RS provides about the same velocitiess as Goex FFFG. Extreme spreads with pyrodex rs are usually a bit larger.

 

[montanadan]

Mec- Before a friend of mine shot my 'chrono' (I really did not shoot it)I had some pretty good results with APP,pretty close to Pryo-P. But I have heard other's getting low yiedls, I wonder if their batches are really that inconsistent? Personally, I have not had good results with T-7 in cap-n-ball, single shots with low charges are pretty good. My last cap-n-ball purchase 61 Uberti, is probably the best of the lot. 2-60's I thought were pretty good, the 61 is much better. It is a 04 production, my problem with Cimarron is they kind of mis-lead customers, by stating that their products are better built...(and hand selected?)I hope the Goex Pinnacle powder works well, and turns out to very similiar to real B/p..Thanks again for your 'Outstanding Posts'..Respectfully Montanadan

 

[mec]

Ive seen some indication that APP may not be so puny in the larger capacity chambers- haven't done much work on it but may just need more volume to really cook. 777 makes a good load when reduced to the volume that will duplicate either black powder or pyrodex. I find that 20 grains/equivalent per volume of 777 does about the same as 30 grains of pyrodex in my 50 and is real clean and accurate 15 works for 20 in my Lepage Target- again with good accuracy.

Cimarron may have been telling the truth a while back. I'm only guessing but it's a strong guess tht all Uberti products are pretty much equal now that they are under the ownership of the same people who own Beretta. I wrote Cimarron a while back and asked if their caplocks were finished to a higher standard and they didn't answer. They used to insist on it.

I think the guy who runs Cimarron did a lot to reform the Single Action Armies produced in Italy - or at least gets credit for it in the gun magazines.(Of course, gun magazines operate under different laws of nature than anyplace else.)
There is book of the Apocrypha that says that a Gun Manufacturer told Pilates decurion that Jesus and the Disciples where camped out down by the road to Damascus instead of on the Mount Of Olives. Since that time, Gun Manufactures have been given divine permission to lie and lie and lie and lie and lie and lie about their products and practices.
As long as he continues to stock parts for all the popular Colt models, I'm going to try not to urinate on him too much.

 

[bezoar]

Cimarron did nothing more then make sure each gun was timed accurately, and made sure the internals were all nicely polished up.

 

[montanadan]

Bezoar- I would truly like to believe that,however I have had a couple personal experiences contrary to your statement. I would believe that the exterior finish may be better, I rather doubt they touch the internals. Respectfully Montanadan..(who has not had to many good experiences with the big 'C').

 

[mec]

Hmmmm. the Uberti internals are nicely polished now-and,the parts you order from Cimarron look exactly like the ones that come in the guns from VTI GunParts,Taylor and Uberti USA.

 

[montanadan]

MEC- I now, sort of understand the theory behind gun manufactures? I get all my parts from VTI gun parts(not Cimarron), VTI knows what they are doing, most of the time they have everything in stock. They stock parts for Pietta,Uberti,and Pedersoli, I understand they bought up some parts for Armi San Marco? Here is their web-site; www.vtigunparts.com , I hope this helps someone out. Respectfully Montanadan...(Armi San Marco parts, Taylor'&co.?)

 

[mec]

VTI performed the promethian feat of actually getting a full order of lockwork parts for the Pietta LeMat for me. They had to order them from Italy and it took two months but they did it. Others have tried and failed.
(I ordered a few parts as a test from Taylor. They sent every one but it too took two months.}

VTI told me they planned to have Lemat parts in stock in the united states and they say they do have a few now. They had planned to put them up on the web site in Jan or Feb and this hasn't happened. I suspect they have had to fight Pietta for every one and couldn't get enough sent to put up a parts list.

VTI is good.

 

[montanadan]

MEC- yes the Uberti's are in-deed finished very nicely. The replacement parts are finished very well. The reason I do not use Cimarron for parts, it takes them forever just to ship them to you. I think they have one guy doing the shipping and receiving, they had the parts, but it took them over a week just to get them shipped. I do not even want to talk about Pietta(I have my NOMEX on),some say they have come up quite a bit in their production? Yes the question mark is there on purpose.. The best cap-n-ball pistols I ever bought(out of the box) came from NAVY ARMS(Frontiersman's)51 Navies 36 cal.(2002)(UBERTI's) Said they were hand timed,and had Wolf springs, they were , and they did. I do not know if they are the same now? I am still waiting and watching for the book... Best wishes ..Respectfully Montanadan

 

[mec]

FLASH! I screwed up. This revolver doesnt have an outsized chamber. I set Hornady .375 balls on top of each chamber and started rotating them around. Every one of them dropped down into the chambers and I could shove them just below the chamber mouths with fairly light pressure. They all then engaged the chamber walls and would have had to be swaged in with lever pressure. I experimented around a bit and none of the balls walked forward from recoil.

The .375 balls are marginal for these chambers as with other uberti 36s we've seen lately. No big deal as velocities are consistent and accuracy is very good.

 

[alisal]

Mec- Hate to be a dummy. What does extreme spread mean?