Complete noob to muzzleloading.

[Hulbert]

I recently was refinishing a modern firearm and thinking about the next deer season. My state is supposed to be extending the muzzle loader season by a week, taking a week out of the bow season. Naturally, as a sportsman, I wish to capitalize on this. Having wanted to get a muzzleloader for some time I was considering my options, save money to buy a muzzleloader I'd actually like, the traditional kind, or get a cheap modern one and probably hate it. Being low on cash I was thinking, maybe just not hunt during those two weeks. Then it struck me, why not build my own matchlock! I plan on making it a 12 ga, and using rifled slugs for more accuracy, or buckshot. I also will be able to use this for taking other game, and can buy the appropriate rounds in the reloading section of my local shop. There are plenty of plans for DIY shotty's so I figured I would use one of the pipes recommended there for my barrel, do a little drilling, some soldering, and work on the stock. My plan is to actually make the trigger and cock one piece, so a slow steady pressure will set it off, and since my tools are rather limited, I plan to attach this to the outside of the stock, rather than fitting in the stock. I hope all this made sense the way I described it. Now for the questions:
Will this type of design be a safety issue?
Is there anything specific I need to know about types of metal or thicknesses of pipes? Would a Muzzleloader need a thicker pipe than a standard 12 ga. I will be using it in the capacity of a shotgun, not a rifle, of course I will be using rifled slugs.
Am I better off with something besides 12 ga slugs in the barrel, such as balls or even special bullets for muzzleloaders? I won't have any rifling, it's complete smoothbore.
Finally, what to do about sights? Will a double bead suffice? Or should I go the JB weld route and file me down some sights? How do I line them up properly and place them properly on my shotgun?
The idea of hunting with a matchlock appeals to me because when I hunt primitive I like it pretty primitive, but of course I still want to have as clean a kill as possible. I use a recurve bow for hunting, refuse to buy a compound. I also like the idea of hunting with something I made myself, even if it is ugly (function over form for me!. I also need something to tinker with, or else I'll go insane.

 

[Trot]

Not sure what you mean by "pipes" for a barrel or what you would be soldering. You need to use a genuine barrel, threaded for a breechplug for safety. Have at making the lock, trigger, stock etc. but use a real barrel.

 

[ehoff]

I agree 100% with Trot you need to get a muzzleloader barrel that is properly breeched. Pipe, tubing and other things have been used for barrels, sometimes with disasterous results. Better to spend money on a good barrel then end up maimed or six feet under trying to save a few bucks.

Plan on spending about $250.00+ for a 12 gauge octagon to round barrel.

As for protectiles your can shoot patched round ball (12ga. is 75 caliber, I think) or shot.

As for sights on an octagon to round barrel, the front signt is soldered on with silver solder. Most smoothbores don't have rear sights, but one could be installed on the octagon portion of the barrel in a dovetail. The sight can then be drifted right or left in the dovetail to change the point of impact.

 

[MSW]

i agree with trott & ehof.

the critical part of any muzzle loader is the barrel and breeech.

not to be undiplomatic, but if you use anything other than a properly breeched barrel, you're just making a really fancy pipe bomb; that's the unvarnished bad news...

again, i'm not trying to scare you or put you off from ML shooting, but this is a serious safety issue and the DIY sites that claim you can make a smoothbore from tubing are really a hazard to the general public... don't fall to the siren song of a twenty dollar gun- it's just not safe, either to you, the animal you're hunting, or the person next to you at the range.

more bad news; you'll probably drop 200 to 250 on a breeched barrel. so, for that kind of money, check out the web and see if you can score a used ML- should be in the same range or perhaps a bit more. then you'll have a complete gun and it won't be an unsafe gadget.

(avoid the el- cheapo brand India made stuff: same problem- cheap steel, no quality control, etc... these are wall hangers, not shooters, in my opinion).

if you have your heart set on building your own gun, that's a good thing and i urge you to pursue it, but you'll spend a good bit more than a used Lyman or Thompson/Center.

good luck, and shoot safe!

 

[Little Wattsy]

As I understand the general question my FIRST response would be to STOP! Take a few weeks (or months) to read EVERYTHING you can on this forum...You will learn ALOT! (I was in your shoes a couple of years ago and made several mistakes!)
Also seriously look at the real cost of creating your own from scratch gun and then take a peek at what it would cost to buy a quality, entry level USED sidelock (on here, gun broker dot com, pawn shops, etc)... You can buy a Very Good Used gun from $100.00 to $300.00 most anytime...Ill bet that it would cost at least $100.00 to create your own as described and if you do it safely/correctly much more.
There are also some nice kits to build on your own from $200.00-ish to $400.00-ish....
Getting started however I would SERIOUSLY advise finding a quality used gun and then expanding your efforts.
Good Luck!!! :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[Hulbert]

Thanks to all who replied, glad I asked before I did it! I was going to use a threaded pipe and put a cap on it. Guess I'll look into buying a decent used one. I've seen some but they were in bad condition, so I ask- Can I use these as a building block? Remove rust, clean, degrease, re-blue, etc? And since I really want to use a matchlock-I suppose I can easily adapt the lock to hold the cord. Then I could also use standardized ammo and accessories. I didn't think a shotgun or muzzleloader would have the pressure to make it dangerous to fire out of a pipe, but I really don't know about metallurgy. I'm just hoping I can find a smoothbore, most of what I've seen are rifled, and I'd like a shotgun. I'm actually more worried about the bore than what type of action I have. Would a smooth bore muzzleloader in .50 have sufficient power to propel shot ranging from 00 buck to #6? Or is it a bad idea to put shot through them? Can I use standard shot that would be used in reloading? Also what about Steel and other non toxic shot (yes, I want to use this rig for duck hunting)?

 

[Little Wattsy]

Thanks to all who replied, glad I asked before I did it! I was going to use a threaded pipe and put a cap on it. Guess I'll look into buying a decent used one. I've seen some but they were in bad condition, so I ask- Can I use these as a building block? Remove rust, clean, degrease, re-blue, etc? And since I really want to use a matchlock-I suppose I can easily adapt the lock to hold the cord. Then I could also use standardized ammo and accessories. I didn't think a shotgun or muzzleloader would have the pressure to make it dangerous to fire out of a pipe, but I really don't know about metallurgy. I'm just hoping I can find a smoothbore, most of what I've seen are rifled, and I'd like a shotgun. I'm actually more worried about the bore than what type of action I have. Would a smooth bore muzzleloader in .50 have sufficient power to propel shot ranging from 00 buck to #6? Or is it a bad idea to put shot through them? Can I use standard shot that would be used in reloading? Also what about Steel and other non toxic shot (yes, I want to use this rig for duck hunting)?

Yes you CAN use these as building blocks...Refubishing unless they are soo bad that they are beyond repair. Smoth bore's ARE available and I THINK you want "bigger" then a .50. I dont swing that way and so use .50's and .54's to deer hunt with and like the rifled barrels BUT...I believe taht you want a .60 for shot. There are some guns taht you could get an interchangeable barrel and replace the original...Replacement barrels range from $180.00 to $260.00. The T/C Renegade is an easy-ish one to change barrels and they can be found cheapish if you are looking AND they are guarenteed for the live of the gun reguardless of how meny owners.

 

[Onojutta]

Welcome! You will find that this is positively the best forum on the internet. There are so many knowledgeable folks on here that are willing to help out share information.

As for your question about using a pipe for a barrel, here are some very compelling reasons to buy a real barrel instead of trying to make on yourself. Notice how many times the word 'homemade' is present:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/192442/

 

[widget350]

Before you go too far, you may want to double check your local laws regarding hunting with a matchlock, since it entails having a burning matchcord. There have been people on this board that had issues hunting with a matchlock, even on their own land - though they weren't in NC.

Other than that, a matchlock should be a relatively easy gun to build. I agree that having a barrel made for the purpose of being a barrel is better than piping, which is generally DOM, and therefore has a welded seam, which is undesirable for any type of barrel.

 

[ohio ramrod]

PIPES cannot be used for barrels. A heavy walled seamless drawn tubing could be. Back in the late sixties I made a shotgun using 5/8 I.D. 1 inch O.D. seamless tubing. I was working at a machine shop that specialised in aircraft hydraulics so I had the material available. BUT DO NOT attempt to make a barrel out of pipe! You will end up with a pipe bomb!

 

[Hulbert]

Seamless tubing? I take it that's a specialty thing and not something to buy at Lowes?

 

[Onojutta]

But aren't original hand forged barrels welded?

 

[Zonie]

"Is there anything specific I need to know about types of metal or thicknesses of pipes? "

"I didn't think a shotgun or muzzleloader would have the pressure to make it dangerous to fire out of a pipe, but I really don't know about metallurgy."

"
Seamless tubing? I take it that's a specialty thing and not something to buy at Lowes? "
------------

First off, Welcome to the Forum.

OK, for the first question, there are very few commercially available tubes that could be used for making a barrel.

ALL galvanized and Black pipe are totally unsuitable for a barrel.
They are designed to contain low pressure gases and fluids that are not subjected to rapid pressure increases such as are found in a gun barrel.
They are usually made from the weakest,cheapest steel available and they are all welded.

There are "seamless tubing" available that is not seamless. It is also made by rolling and welding it but that is followed by running it thru a die to size it and to make the weld invisible.
This "seamless" quality is needed to make the tube function with tube fittings. It does not make the tube appreciably stronger.
This kind of tubing is often called DOM which stands for "Drawn Over Mandrel".

This kind of tubing is available in some very heavy wall thicknesses but NONE of it is meant to withstand the sudden pressure rise that shooting black powder will create.

Pressure:

Lymans testing has shown that pressures in a muzzleloading black powder shooting 12 guage barrel can exceed 5,500 pounds per square inch.

A square 1 inch X 1 inch pistol with that pressure on it would lift a Buick.

It is almost twice the pressures found in high pressure Oxygen tanks used for welding.

To make matters worse, this is a almost instant pressure rise and when designing parts that contain pressures the wall thickness must increase over 4 times the thickness required for a slowly rising pressure.

Seamless tubing:

You are correct. Lowe's and for that matter most metal supplying companies that supply tubing don't have true "seamless" tubing.
They sometimes carry DOM tubing.

It is available and unlike the DOM tubing it is truly seamless. It is formed out of a solid piece of metal that is extruded thru thick dies after heating it to near melting pressures.
Needless to say it is Very expensive and because it is seldom used the buyer needs to buy it by the ton to keep the cost down.

The bottom line is to do as the others have suggested. You may be able to find an old single shot 12 guage shotgun for $70 and use the barrel but you should understand that the existing chamber would have to be cut off and new threads made to install a breech plug in it.

 

[Zonie]

But aren't original hand forged barrels welded?

Yes but they were iron, the barrel maker specialized in making forged (not gas or arc) welds, the walls were thick and they often blew up when they were test fired.

 

[Hulbert]

Thanks for the info! I might try that with the old barrel, I have some threading dies and a hacksaw. I take it I need to purchase a breech plug? Then I thread it and screw it on, or is this something that needs welding? Can anyone maybe mention a good book that will point me in the right direction, this looks like it might be more complicated than I thought. I actually have an old H&R bolt shotgun that I think has a bent receiver. If I can't get it to straighten out I may just use that. I'm not sure what's wrong with it, but that would give me the barrel and the stock! That's a good portion of my work done right there.

 

[longrifle78]

Skinny indian is going to be dead indian if hes not very lucky ! Please dont try to build a gun with homemade cobbled parts. I'm not trying to sound rude but your gonna get hurt.

 

[smokehouseman]

longrifle78, you said it all :thumbsup: .

 

[paulvallandigham]

Skinny: You are not just new to MLing: You are dangerous! I don't like to be critical, particularly to new members, but after reading your responses here, and seeing you ignoring the sound advice given by members I respect, I don't think its responsible for any of us to continue to give you advice.

You are going to hurt yourself, or someone else, and I would not want to be accused of contributing to your Gross Negligence, if you continue with your way of thinking.

Gun Barrels built for one purpose, may not be good for another. The Age and condition of the barrel also has to be considered.

You obviously have never hunted Waterfowl, because you would know that the minimum gauge allowed under Federal Law will be 20 gauge, and that is a very poor choice of gauges to use to shoot geese and ducks, considering the non-toxic shot requirements.

If you are not a skilled, Trained machinist, you have no business trying to build any gun from parts, IMHO. If you don't have a background in metallurgy, you have no idea what kind of metals to use. If you don't know how to harden, and temper steel, much less understand there is a difference between these two processes, you have no business attempting to make a gun.

Please STOP!

Spend a lot of time over the next year reading All the posts on this forum. Read the articles. Read the charts. Take a look at the links pages, and scan the on-line catalogs of suppliers, to see what is available.

Then, ask questions about working on a gun. There are wonderful 'used" guns for sale by members here that are in good shape, that you can buy at very reasonable prices. The owners will give you the load details for accurate shooting with the gun, and may even make you a deal on the Accessories for the gun. This is how most new shooters begin to learn about this set of skills.

I wish you the best. :thumbsup:

 

[Jason Lewis]

surely someone out there has an old CVA percussion gun for sale. great way to start cheap. simpler too. be safe and get off the idea of tubing unless you want to end up on youtube.

 

[larry wv]

Skinny look up Darwin awards. Try to figure out where you will be placed in the order. Find someone at least 20 years older than you with some common sense and find a Good cheap used rifle and someone to show you how to shoot it. If you don't want to do that forget hunting in black powder season. You may think i am a a-- but at least you will have a better chance of not getting badly hurt. Larry