Components for shooting trap and 5-stand

[SDSmlf]

Thinking about trying trap, 5-stand and possibly sporting clays with a 12 gauge Pedersoli double. Have shot all previously, but with modern guns. Brother-in-law is trying to get me back in to it and thought if I did, I would use a muzzleloader.

So, my question for the group, is from where and what components do you competitive muzzleloader scatter gun shooters purchase? I currently use a 3/4” punch for all my 12 gauge components, but that is a lot of tap-pity tap when easily shooting 100 plus rounds per outing, so I intend to buy what I need.

Would think for muzzleloading a 12 gauge I would want 11 gauge components for a snug fit. Yes or no? Or is it a combination, maybe different diameters for the thin card vs the cushion? Will be shooting a @Skychief inspired load.

As an FYI, at the muzzle the bores measure .710”/.692”. Pedersoli’s current spec says cylinder/modified, so mine may be a bit tighter, but I do not know the bore diameter behind the choke. It has primarily been a hunting gun, taking squirrels, rabbits and a few turkeys. Any target shooting has been informal preparation for hunting.

So what do the folks actually shooting at clay targets have to say and suggest? Not in any hurry. If I try it will not be until after the first of the year.

Once I get load and components worked out the real test will be if I can figure a way to reload and keep up with the rest of a squad shooting modern shotguns. Imagine they will cut me a little slack just because of the novelty of a BP muzzleloader, as long as I am busting clays. Topic for a different thread after I get some confidence in components and a load.

 

[Feltwad]

May I suggest if you want to shoot trap with a muzzle loader it is best to have two teams of 5 shooters to a team and using only muzzle loaders so one team can reload while the second team shoot .You will find that muzzle loaders on a line with modern breech loaders do not mix in fact a lot of clay clubs here in the UK do not allow black powder. I have found that tradition for original muzzle loaders were single barrel which are the best for trap and were made in all bore sizes from 4 to 12
Feltwad
A stand of Pigeon Muzzle Loaders

 

[biliff]

Went thru the process this spring with my Pedersoli flint double 20ga. While I have shot registered skeet and sporting clays with a suppository shotgun, I'm not shooting "competitively" with a muzzleloader but trying to get in enough practice on skeet and 5 stand/sporting to learn to shoot decently with it.

For components, I went with Circle Fly 20 ga 1/8" over powder/1/2" Fiber/overshot card combination. I drill a 1/16" hole thru a stack of the overshot cards to let air escape when seating. They have a couple different wad diameter choices for 12 and 20 ga.. Look at their wad sizing chart on their web site. I use spit on the cushion wads to help wipe the bore when loading.

For a pouch, I went with an October Country bag with an Irish shot charger sewn on the strap. The shot charger holds about 30 rounds (1 oz) so it lasts for a round of skeet and a bit. Beats the hell out of trying to carry 25 separate containers. http://www.octobercountry.com/english-fowler-hunting-bag-with-charger/

Powder is carried in a basic horn/measure set up.

A steel loading rod with bore guide makes loading easier than with the ramrod. There are gun racks at all our 5-Stand and sporting clays stations so I load at the rack and leave the rod there. Its a bit more problematic on the skeet field as there is no place to leave the rod.

Good luck getting thru 100 rounds in a day. It will take awhile. Generally, I'm done after 25-30 shots. Same goes for keeping up with a squad of cartridge shooters. Just ain't gonna happen. I'm lucky in that we have voice activated traps so I can shoot by myself and don't need any company. Loading a double barrel is also problematic trying to keep everything straight. Trying to do it in a hurry to keep up with a squad could cause problems.

 

[SDSmlf]

May I suggest if you want to shoot trap with a muzzle loader it is best to have two teams of 5 shooters to a team and using only muzzle loaders so one team can reload while the second team shoot .You will find that muzzle loaders on a line with modern breech loaders do not mix in fact a lot of clay clubs here in the UK do not allow black powder. I have found that tradition for original muzzle loaders were single barrel which are the best for trap and were made in all bore sizes from 4 to 12
Feltwad
A stand of Pigeon Muzzle Loaders

Unfortunately, I will be the lone wolf as far as muzzleloaders are concerned. Just the way it is at the club I belong to. There are no other nearby ranges that shoot BP muzzleloader clay sports.

One thing in my favor, is that I can open the ranges and shoot by myself any time I want (that the range is not already in use) and attempt to work out the kinks. That is why I want to figure out a load and components that work first.

And I love the stand of pigeon muzzleloaders. Have only shot live pigeon shoots a half a dozen times or so years ago. Not sure politically correct anymore.

 

[SDSmlf]

Went thru the process this spring with my Pedersoli flint double 20ga. While I have shot registered skeet and sporting clays with a suppository shotgun, I'm not shooting "competitively" with a muzzleloader but trying to get in enough practice on skeet and 5 stand/sporting to learn to shoot decently with it.

For components, I went with Circle Fly 20 ga 1/8" over powder/1/2" Fiber/overshot card combination. I drill a 1/16" hole thru a stack of the overshot cards to let air escape when seating. They have a couple different wad diameter choices for 12 and 20 ga.. Look at their wad sizing chart on their web site. I use spit on the cushion wads to help wipe the bore when loading.

For a pouch, I went with an October Country bag with an Irish shot charger sewn on the strap. The shot charger holds about 30 rounds (1 oz) so it lasts for a round of skeet and a bit. Beats the hell out of trying to carry 25 separate containers. http://www.octobercountry.com/english-fowler-hunting-bag-with-charger/

Powder is carried in a basic horn/measure set up.

A steel loading rod with bore guide makes loading easier than with the ramrod. There are gun racks at all our 5-Stand and sporting clays stations so I load at the rack and leave the rod there. Its a bit more problematic on the skeet field as there is no place to leave the rod.

Good luck getting thru 100 rounds in a day. It will take awhile. Generally, I'm done after 25-30 shots. Same goes for keeping up with a squad of cartridge shooters. Just ain't gonna happen. I'm lucky in that we have voice activated traps so I can shoot by myself and don't need any company. Loading a double barrel is also problematic trying to keep everything straight. Trying to do it in a hurry to keep up with a squad could cause problems.

Thank you. Appreciate your perspective.

Honestly, 100 rounds are a goal. Can it be done? Remain me to be seen, or at least that is my personal challenge. Have done it numerous times with modern shotguns, so why not with a BP muzzleloader?

FYI. Not talkIng sanctioned shoots, at least for now. Just something I want to see if it can be done. Modern shotgun trap had gotten kind of boring when I stopped shooting it, plus the original group I was shooting with pretty much dispersed (or passed away) and I lost interest. Nobody is shooting BP muzzleloaders at the club I currently belong to, so why not? I will be a novelty from the getgo. And if I threaten or heaven forbid, win a match or two.....

 

[Feltwad]

S D Smif
Here in the UK the shooting of live pigeon from traps was banned in the 1920,s.
Feltwad

 

[No Deer]

How do you intend to carry the components for a round of sporting clays? The sporting clay matches I have participated in (modern shotgun) were around 100 shots. If you are loading 1 1/8 oz. loads, that is over 7 pounds of shot. Not much fun to lug that around. I would be very surprised if you would be allowed to participate in a sporting clay match using your muzzle loader. No matter how fast and efficient you can load, it will not be fast enough to keep up. Even trap shooting you would slow everyone down. My club is a muzzle loading club only so everyone is using muzzle loaders. The matches (we only have trap shooting) are slow because of the time it takes to load, but again everyone is doing it the same way so nobody is disadvantaged.
As far as being competitive with modern shooters, if you were allowed to participate, you would probably do ok. We have a shoot each year with another club that shoots modern. In the morning we all shoot our own guns, them their modern and us our muzzle loaders, and in the afternoon we swap. In ten years it has come out very even, they have won 6 times and we have won 4. The largest spread for victory has been 1.5 birds average (usually less than one bird difference). We divide the total number of birds hit by each team by the number of shooters on the team. Obviously it takes much longer to shoot the muzzle loaders than the modern. Always a lot of laughs watching the modern shooters trying to shoot our muzzle loaders, especially the flintlocks.

 

[SDSmlf]

How do you intend to carry the components for a round of sporting clays? The sporting clay matches I have participated in (modern shotgun) were around 100 shots. If you are loading 1 1/8 oz. loads, that is over 7 pounds of shot. Not much fun to lug that around. I would be very surprised if you would be allowed to participate in a sporting clay match using your muzzle loader. No matter how fast and efficient you can load, it will not be fast enough to keep up. Even trap shooting you would slow everyone down. My club is a muzzle loading club only so everyone is using muzzle loaders. The matches (we only have trap shooting) are slow because of the time it takes to load, but again everyone is doing it the same way so nobody is disadvantaged.
As far as being competitive with modern shooters, if you were allowed to participate, you would probably do ok. We have a shoot each year with another club that shoots modern. In the morning we all shoot our own guns, them their modern and us our muzzle loaders, and in the afternoon we swap. In ten years it has come out very even, they have won 6 times and we have won 4. The largest spread for victory has been 1.5 birds average (usually less than one bird difference). We divide the total number of birds hit by each team by the number of shooters on the team. Obviously it takes much longer to shoot the muzzle loaders than the modern. Always a lot of laughs watching the modern shooters trying to shoot our muzzle loaders, especially the flintlocks.

More concerned with what I will need/use rather how I will carry it. As I previously posted I will start shooting rounds solo to try to work up technique and speed.

Are there any particular components or sources to get them from that you could recommend?

 

[No Deer]

All you really need for components are powder, wads (over powder, cushion wad if you use one, shot(typically no larger than 7 1/2 is allowed for trap etc. shooting), and over shot card), powder measure and shot measure. You can get most, if not all, from Track of the Wolf, but you may be able to find them local if you have any muzzle loading gun shops around.
I have shot trap, skeet, and 5 stand with a muzzle loader, but it was an event designed for muzzle loaders, so the time to reload was not an issue. Most often there were benches for reloading, so all of the supplies could be kept on the bench, which made reloading simpler. If shooting sporting clays, I would use a cart of some sort to carry the supplies. For the modern sporting clays shoot we went to, we had a wagon to carry all of the shells needed (just over 100 each), as they were too heavy and cumbersome to carry, as we quickly found out the first time. Would be quite a bit more stuff if shooting that many with a muzzle loader, and almost impossible to carry.
Have fun, that is what it is all about. I may have to try sporting clays with a ml sometime, I think it would be a lot of fun.

 

[No Deer]

So, my question for the group, is from where and what components do you competitive muzzleloader scatter gun shooters purchase? I currently use a 3/4” punch for all my 12 gauge components, but that is a lot of tap-pity tap when easily shooting 100 plus rounds per outing, so I intend to buy what I need.

Would think for muzzleloading a 12 gauge I would want 11 gauge components for a snug fit. Yes or no? Or is it a combination, maybe different diameters for the thin card vs the cushion? Will be shooting a @Skychief inspired load.

Once I get load and components worked out the real test will be if I can figure a way to reload and keep up with the rest of a squad shooting modern shotguns. Imagine they will cut me a little slack just because of the novelty of a BP muzzleloader, as long as I am busting clays. Topic for a different thread after I get some confidence in components and a load.

I don't know what to tell you about using 11 ga. components, you will have to get a few and try them to see if you can load them ok or not. I have never tried to load a choked gun, mine is jug choked, so it flares out, but narrows back down to cylinder and I have no issue loading wads etc.

As far as keeping up with the other shooters, you will not be able to keep up, no matter how fast or efficient you get. Shooting trap they will probably let you step up and shoot your birds when you get ready, but they will be done long before you are. (At our club, when shooting informally, muzzle loader has priority over non muzzle loader. Muzzle loaders only at formal shoots).

 

[Grenadier1758]

No Deer should have added a lubricant for the cushion wads. The lubricant can be a soap, such as a dishwashing soap or an oil soap, olive oil or some other thin lubricant to wipe on the edge or soaked to dampen.
Very important for the @Skychief load.

 

[Eterry]

My good friend has shot black powder trap for years, and he's recently invited me along. He uses a range box, with powder and shot chargers and dippers, a mix of 5-1 murphy oil soap/water in a spray bottle for lube. He uses over powder and shot cards, says he cant tell a difference using the wads. All his guns are full choked. He uses a small pair of pliers and bends the corner (a 90degree angle??) of the card. Then pushes in the bent section, and works in the rest. I saw guys break 25 straight many times doing this, my best was 16. But I stop my swing and stink at trap.

Dont you dare use a metal rod...they'll throw you off the range or you'll get someone hurt!!!

A simple 5/8 or so dow rod will work, you can install a handle from a larger piece of dow rod and a brass cap drilled and tapped for a 12 ga jag if you want. A fired 45-70 case will give you about an ounce of shot and equal volume powder, (depends on the case).

Almost everyone there uses Mikes Quality shotgun wads, formerly Flintlocks Inc. Cards are .01 each. They will send you a free sample pack for 12 and 11 gauge.

Mike's Quality Blackpowder Shotgun Wads
6929 Beech Tree Rd.
Nineveh, IN 46164
Phone 317-933-3441

Hope this helps.

 

[Eterry]

Oops, meant to say the cost of the cards are $.01 each, not the thickness...sorry.

 

[SDSmlf]

My good friend has shot black powder trap for years, and he's recently invited me along. He uses a range box, with powder and shot chargers and dippers, a mix of 5-1 murphy oil soap/water in a spray bottle for lube. He uses over powder and shot cards, says he cant tell a difference using the wads. All his guns are full choked. He uses a small pair of pliers and bends the corner (a 90degree angle??) of the card. Then pushes in the bent section, and works in the rest. I saw guys break 25 straight many times doing this, my best was 16. But I stop my swing and stink at trap.

Dont you dare use a metal rod...they'll throw you off the range or you'll get someone hurt!!!

A simple 5/8 or so dow rod will work, you can install a handle from a larger piece of dow rod and a brass cap drilled and tapped for a 12 ga jag if you want. A fired 45-70 case will give you about an ounce of shot and equal volume powder, (depends on the case).

Almost everyone there uses Mikes Quality shotgun wads, formerly Flintlocks Inc. Cards are .01 each. They will send you a free sample pack for 12 and 11 gauge.

Mike's Quality Blackpowder Shotgun Wads
6929 Beech Tree Rd.
Nineveh, IN 46164
Phone 317-933-3441

Hope this helps.

Thank you, appreciate the details provided in your post. Never heard of Mike’s before. Need to do some research.

 

[Skychief]

Mike sells quality components and is a great guy to deal with.

Best regards, Skychief.

 

[biliff]

Don't you dare use a metal rod...they'll throw you off the range or you'll get someone hurt!!!
.

Never heard of this. Care to elaborate?

 

[SDSmlf]

Mike's Quality Blackpowder Shotgun Wads
6929 Beech Tree Rd.
Nineveh, IN 46164
Phone 317-933-3441

Hope this helps.

We will see. Placed an order with Mike’s.

 

[Eterry]

Never heard of this. Care to elaborate?

I can't speak for the club, as I'm not a member. But i think it had to do with sparking qualities of ferrous metals...i saw aluminum, brass, wood, fiber, but no iron or steel.
I know nearly all military muzzleloaders have a metal ram rod, including mine, but at the rifle match all i saw was non ferrous range rods being used, and was loaned a wooden rod to shoot the rifle match.

Possibly other ranges aren't as stringent.

 

[biliff]

Given the NMLRA lists iron as an approved ramrod material for its more traditional matches, not to mention all the steel ramrods, ramrod tips and range rods being sold I think we’re dealing with a local club aberration. If there is a safety issue I’m not aware of it.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Iron and unhardened steel will not draw a spark. The steel has to be hardened for a spark to be created off of it.

I routinely use a 12 penny nail that has been notched to be a flint knapping awl. I have never drawn a spark.