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Yes sir it was.
bpb said:
I believe it was. Several members have said that they have examined originals that had coned muzzles.
The only way I know to really test one would be to find a load for a barrel & clamp it in a vice of some sorts & shot a group, then cone the muzzle & test the same way.
I just built a new hunting rifle for myself & I shot it before coning & after coning. POI stayed the same & accuracy stayed the same. However, this is me shooting it off sandbags & ya still have human error involved, tho the sandbags & bench do eliminate allot of it.
Most of the rifle I am building now the customers are asking for them to be coned, however I build mostly hunting rifles.
I just built a new hunting rifle for myself & I shot it before coning & after coning. POI stayed the same & accuracy stayed the same. However, this is me shooting it off sandbags & ya still have human error involved, tho the sandbags & bench do eliminate allot of it.
Most of the rifle I am building now the customers are asking for them to be coned, however I build mostly hunting rifles.
Goldhunter
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+1 !! :grin: great tool, very easy to use, and loading is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo much easier.
And I had no change in accuracy.
And I had no change in accuracy.
Quick question.
Is a coned bore actually tapered? I have a TC PA hunter, and it has about an inch at the muzzle bored out so it's easy to start a ball. Not sure if this classifies as coning.
Second, I have seen examples of 19th century rifles that had false muzzles that pinned into the true muzzle. Is this a detacable cone? Why do this if coning doesn't effect accuracy.
Thanks.
Is a coned bore actually tapered? I have a TC PA hunter, and it has about an inch at the muzzle bored out so it's easy to start a ball. Not sure if this classifies as coning.
Second, I have seen examples of 19th century rifles that had false muzzles that pinned into the true muzzle. Is this a detacable cone? Why do this if coning doesn't effect accuracy.
Thanks.
paulvallandigham
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Coning is not done to improve accuracy. Its done to ease loading a PRB, so you don't have to carry or use a Short starter,like you must with a target barrel and flat crown. The guns with the false muzzles were designed to seat concical bullets into the barrel so that the bullets were centered and straight in line with the bore. This is essential for best accuracy shooting bullets.
In modern target shooting, the throats of the target rifle barrels are specially cut and shaped to match the ogive of the bullet, and the bullet is seated out into the throat where it either makes full contact, or is purposely keep a few fractions of an inch back form contact, so that the bullet is released from the neck of the casing before it slams into the rifling.
There are two different schools of thought on this suject, as there are concerning accuracy in guns in general. The idea is to not have an undersized neck of a casing tilt the bullet away form exact alignment with the bore, so that it enters the barrel evenly on all sides.
The Black powder cartridge guys will even leave the casing with the mouth expanded, so that the expanded rim will clean crud out of the chamber when the cartridge is loaded, and center the bullet with the bore when the cartridge is seated in the chamber, fully. You can't do this with repeater rifles, but its a great technique for single shots.
Coning a muzzle loading barrel does help the Patch and round ball gradually seat themselves in the center of the bore, and helps prevent any tearing or stretching of the cloth patch by rifling at the muzzle. There is less distortion of the shape of the round Ball as its being loaded, since you don't have to give it a hard hit with your short starter to get it into the barrel. All these little things contributes to consistent, shot after shot accuracy, but accuracy depends on the powder charge, choice of powder, thickness of patch, choice of lube, uniformity of ball weight, the absense of voids, air pockets, dimples, etc. in the ball, the Rate of Twist of the rifling, the length and condition of the barrel, and dozens of more things. Eliminating any of these variables is going to contribute to accuracy. Coning the barrel shortens the reloading process and lightens that bag of gear not needed. Those reasons, and the others i have mentioned are enough to justify coning a hunting rifle.
The rebated muzzle on the new T/C barrels is to help you start their maxiballs, Not PRB. In fact, if you try to put a PRB in them using precut patches, you may have trouble keeping the ball centered in the patching. It would be better to use a strip of lubed patch material, and cut the patch at the muzzle in one of these guns. Or, cut the muzzle off to eliminate the chamber altogether.
In modern target shooting, the throats of the target rifle barrels are specially cut and shaped to match the ogive of the bullet, and the bullet is seated out into the throat where it either makes full contact, or is purposely keep a few fractions of an inch back form contact, so that the bullet is released from the neck of the casing before it slams into the rifling.
There are two different schools of thought on this suject, as there are concerning accuracy in guns in general. The idea is to not have an undersized neck of a casing tilt the bullet away form exact alignment with the bore, so that it enters the barrel evenly on all sides.
The Black powder cartridge guys will even leave the casing with the mouth expanded, so that the expanded rim will clean crud out of the chamber when the cartridge is loaded, and center the bullet with the bore when the cartridge is seated in the chamber, fully. You can't do this with repeater rifles, but its a great technique for single shots.
Coning a muzzle loading barrel does help the Patch and round ball gradually seat themselves in the center of the bore, and helps prevent any tearing or stretching of the cloth patch by rifling at the muzzle. There is less distortion of the shape of the round Ball as its being loaded, since you don't have to give it a hard hit with your short starter to get it into the barrel. All these little things contributes to consistent, shot after shot accuracy, but accuracy depends on the powder charge, choice of powder, thickness of patch, choice of lube, uniformity of ball weight, the absense of voids, air pockets, dimples, etc. in the ball, the Rate of Twist of the rifling, the length and condition of the barrel, and dozens of more things. Eliminating any of these variables is going to contribute to accuracy. Coning the barrel shortens the reloading process and lightens that bag of gear not needed. Those reasons, and the others i have mentioned are enough to justify coning a hunting rifle.
The rebated muzzle on the new T/C barrels is to help you start their maxiballs, Not PRB. In fact, if you try to put a PRB in them using precut patches, you may have trouble keeping the ball centered in the patching. It would be better to use a strip of lubed patch material, and cut the patch at the muzzle in one of these guns. Or, cut the muzzle off to eliminate the chamber altogether.
paulvallandigham said:
OK, no wonder I am having problem keeping the patch centered. I wonder why they did that on a rifle specifically designed for PRB? The PA hunter is 1:66 twist and advertised for roundball only.
I understand the concept with coning and throats, having been a competitive centerfire shooter (F class and tactical). But this BP stuff is all new and weird. Yet so much fun! BP cartridge and in-lines have no interest for me. If it's BP, it should load from the front and use a flint...maybe a cap, but only if struck from a sidelock or underlock.
AFAIC, modern BP is just a way to shoot BP in a special season. We don't have a BP season here, so one shoots BP for the love of it, not to push the boundaries of the game laws.
Once again, a cogent and informative post. Thanks Paul.
BTW, what about aftermarket bbls? Would I be better served buying a GM or similar barrel for PRB? Can I get one with a proper cone?
paulvallandigham
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Tod: Roundball is the go to expert around here on T/C guns and replacement barrels. I believe the GM is still making replacement barrels, and that they now comes without the helicoil in the threads. They comes with a straight bore, that you can cone with a tool you can buy from Joe Wood in Texas. Check the links here, or do a search for his name, address and phone. The tool costs about $40.00, and is caliber specific, since it has a guide on the front of the tool to ride on the lands, and keep the bevel even as you turn the tool by hand. Every one here who has one or more of his tools say they work great. As cheap as I am, I would consider cutting that chamber off the front of the barrel, even if it means having to move the front site back and cut a new dovetail for it! Then i would cone that barrel.
Stophel
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I HAVE seen old barrels that were obviously coned. The bore would be visibly flared out about an inch and a half or so from the muzzle out. The rifling would also be filed (?) out to match. There would be absolutely no bevel type crowning on the muzzle whatsoever. I have yet to hear of the existence of an old gun that has been coned out with the rifling not being cut out to match. I ain't sayin' that there ain't none, but that it has not as yet been brought to my attention.
At one time, I was of the opinion that coning was S.O.P. on 18th century rifles. Now, I believe that this is not the case. The majority seem to have not been coned at all, but simply had a small, narrow bevel crown (sometimes VERY small) with each rifling groove having a "crown" of their own filed into the muzzle, making a sort of "flower" shape. Quite attractive, really.
I am beginning to do this with my own rifles that I do.
As for ease of loading without the horrible short starter, a cone is not necessary. The simple solution: Smaller balls and thicker patches. :winking:
Simplify, man! :v
At one time, I was of the opinion that coning was S.O.P. on 18th century rifles. Now, I believe that this is not the case. The majority seem to have not been coned at all, but simply had a small, narrow bevel crown (sometimes VERY small) with each rifling groove having a "crown" of their own filed into the muzzle, making a sort of "flower" shape. Quite attractive, really.
I am beginning to do this with my own rifles that I do.
As for ease of loading without the horrible short starter, a cone is not necessary. The simple solution: Smaller balls and thicker patches. :winking:
Simplify, man! :v
jtmattison
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Well, this one has been sleeping since November and I'm trying to wake it up.
I just read my latest issue of Muzzleloader Magazine and there is an article on coning.
From their testing, coning hurts accuracy in their test rifle.
They are going to continue the experiment with a straight "coned" muzzle to see how it does.
I think I believe all the fellers on here who say coning makes the rifle easier to load and possibly more accurate. The way I see it, if it doesn't HURT accuracy then the increased ease of loading makes it worth the effort on a hunting rifle.
I just ordered one of Joe Wood's coning tools. I should be coning one of my GPR's this weekend.
HD
I just read my latest issue of Muzzleloader Magazine and there is an article on coning.
From their testing, coning hurts accuracy in their test rifle.
They are going to continue the experiment with a straight "coned" muzzle to see how it does.
I think I believe all the fellers on here who say coning makes the rifle easier to load and possibly more accurate. The way I see it, if it doesn't HURT accuracy then the increased ease of loading makes it worth the effort on a hunting rifle.
I just ordered one of Joe Wood's coning tools. I should be coning one of my GPR's this weekend.
HD
Guest
You know what? - I started this thread, and after all the positive comments therein, bought a Joe Woods Coning tool as well. It sits in the night stand drawer and becons - constantly becons. In the interveining time, I have gone to a much thinner patch for my .54 Blue Ridge and can literally thumb start the PRP with out a short starter - no coning required. However - I hunt with a GPR .54 and it likes a tight PRB combo that is not capable of being thumb started. This the rifle I will cone - one of these days when I finally locate the correct brand of double sticky backed carpet tape. :winking:
Tod I got a GM 58 4 weeks ago and it works great, for a drop in barrel this one really did! 
and onl had to go one 1/2 turn on back sight to zero it right in. (and the back sight is first thing to go if I can find one of the old sights) Dont know ifyou would call the barrel conned but I can start a ball with my thumb it's a little less than 1/8" flared. Fred :hatsoff:
and onl had to go one 1/2 turn on back sight to zero it right in. (and the back sight is first thing to go if I can find one of the old sights) Dont know ifyou would call the barrel conned but I can start a ball with my thumb it's a little less than 1/8" flared. Fred :hatsoff:
The article in MuzzleLoader mentioned that the patches recovered from the normal barrel looked, well...normal however, the patches recovered from the coned barrel (if they could find anything) were ripped and torn into ragged pieces.
The author attributes the poorer accuracy to these blown patches.
Have any of you folks who have coned barrels recovered your patches and if so, were they also torn/ripped up??
Curious minds want to know. :grin:
zonie
The author attributes the poorer accuracy to these blown patches.
Have any of you folks who have coned barrels recovered your patches and if so, were they also torn/ripped up??
Curious minds want to know. :grin:
zonie
I shoot a .40 flinter with .016 osnagurg patch, Wonder Lube, .395 round ball, 35 gns of 3f, in a Green Mtn barrel coned with my own home made conning tool. I regularly recover and inspect the patches and have found them to be consistantly intact and in good shape.
I also shoot a .50 flinter with a .011 pillow ticking Wonder lubed patch over a .495 ball, 75 gns of 3f in a Green Mtn barrel coned with the same coning tool used in the .40; with similar results.
I also shoot a .50 flinter with a .011 pillow ticking Wonder lubed patch over a .495 ball, 75 gns of 3f in a Green Mtn barrel coned with the same coning tool used in the .40; with similar results.
Zonie,
I think I have coned 3 barrels where I have test fired and recovered patches. None have shown any signs of being any different than before coning. I do polish the bore back to 600grit wet/dry paper and also use 0000 steel wool wrapped around a cleaning jag to make sure it is as polished as the original bore and you can not feel any difference or line when running a tight patch down the bore.
I think I have coned 3 barrels where I have test fired and recovered patches. None have shown any signs of being any different than before coning. I do polish the bore back to 600grit wet/dry paper and also use 0000 steel wool wrapped around a cleaning jag to make sure it is as polished as the original bore and you can not feel any difference or line when running a tight patch down the bore.
I have a 50 caliber Colerain barrel with round bottom rifling that I coned with Joe Wood's tool.
I get excellent accuracy and the recovered patches are all in good shape with no sign of tearing. In fact, I could probably use them again.
I get excellent accuracy and the recovered patches are all in good shape with no sign of tearing. In fact, I could probably use them again.
ZONIE Ive got 2 that are coned or belled or whatever youd call it, (been reading up on it before my nap today in the old pre 1900 books) and out of 500 shots or more Ive never seen a ripped one, nothing like those in the pics at all ever from any of my rifles since the first CVA in 71. Fred :hatsoff: Add to that everything I can find about great shooting rifles of flintlock time (books Im stuck in now) they ALL are coned. Just a added 2 cents
I've coned 6 rifles and not one of them has blown or torn patches. I've also noticed that when a shooter has his scores go down and asks around, others tell thm to try the coning. On several occasions, the bore just needed a few passes with the ol green scrubie, musta had some fouling or something. If that didn't work I checked the touch hole liner, if it was OK , I coned the barrel. Maybe it was a confidence thing I'm not sure but their scores came up again and the groups were smaller.
