Conical bullet recommendation .45

[58ball]

I'm looking for 4 or five suggestions for conical bullet molds. The rifle is a Pedersoli Missouri River Hawken, 30" Barrel, 45 cal, 1 in 47in twist rate. I don't have exact bore measurements at the moment, and it'll be a few days before I'm back home to measure it. I'm looking to go with paper patching the bullets, just looking for some general opinions for molds. I know a couple of y'all are experienced in fast twist muzzleloading and would appreciate any tips.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@58ball, what is your intended use for the rifle? Hunting or long range shooting? Each of these will require a different conical bullet for optimal performance. For hunting, a round ball will provide acceptable performance at close ranges of 75 yards or less.

By the way a 1 in 47" is not a fast twist for a muzzle loader. Some may say so, but that is somewhat misleading. It will work for a conical bullet and a loading procedure for a patched round ball can be developed to be quite accurate.

 

[nkbj]

Good morning 58Ball.
In the rifle you describe I'd probably try one of the 250 to 280 grain hollow base molds as have been made by Lyman and RCBS, and a push through sizer.

This is from some in process planning notes for a project rifle I've been threatening to jump into. A nominally .45 bore octagonal to round contour barrel would be added to a CVA .50 percussion, slimming down the stock, repairing a crack in the fore end and getting rid of the blocky end cap. Make it go to my shoulder like a .22RF. Any how, enough about my maybegonnadoitsomeday project. These notes are included just because it provides a little info put together so far on those diameters of molds and maybe it mite be of some use to you.

Mold No.​	Make​	Diameter​	Weight​	Paper​	Comments​	.458NE PP?​	Forward?​
45 Maxi	TC
454613 New	Lyman		265		Has plain base and hollow base plugs.	Could paper patch as-is.	C ring .450"Ø base plug
45-280	RCBS	0.444"	280	Brown filter paper.	.525"Ø plug	Could be enlarged to smooth sided.	Could turn this into a PP for the .52 rifles.
445-ED	Challenger?	0.445" (.443"-.447")	262		Flat nose wadcutter.
445599	Lyman	0.445"	250		Base plug is missing.
445369	Lyman	0.445" (.444-.446")	291
450229	Lyman	0.455" on bands. 0.445" on plug.	155		Base plug is missing.		Use in Pietta revolver?
454613 Old	Lyman	0.456"			Has interchangeable base plugs.
460-236-SP-BH5	NOE	0.460"	236		Plain base.

 

[Sun City]

Stick with RB and be happy!

 

[hanshi]

Patched round ball is best at 100 yds or less. A prb can work wonders well beyond that distance however. I've never hunted with anything other than round ball yet still have killed deer a bit beyond that distance.

 

[nkbj]

58ball,
A twist to all this you mite want to consider is that if you find a set of iron blocks such as some of those in that listing, it wouldn't be real difficult to remove the lube grooves from the mold. Sometimes the lube grooves are beneficial because they help the paper patch stay in place. And of course, lube grooves can help to stabilize the bullets. But, some prefer to have the bullets smooth sided.

 

[58ball]

@58ball, what is your intended use for the rifle? Hunting or long range shooting? Each of these will require a different conical bullet for optimal performance. For hunting, a round ball will provide acceptable performance at close ranges of 75 yards or less.

By the way a 1 in 47" is not a fast twist for a muzzle loader. Some may say so, but that is somewhat misleading. It will work for a conical bullet and a loading procedure for a patched round ball can be developed to be quite accur

58ball,
A twist to all this you mite want to consider is that if you find a set of iron blocks such as some of those in that listing, it wouldn't be real difficult to remove the lube grooves from the mold. Sometimes the lube grooves are beneficial because they help the paper patch stay in place. And of course, lube grooves can help to stabilize the bullets. But, some prefer to have the bullets smooth sided.

I intend to use it in LR target shooting primarily, but am also going to hunt with it.I live In a plains area. So reaching out 2-400 yards is not uncommon at all. I have 12 muzzleloaders, and have been a round ball 1in 60 shooter for over 20 years. Best shot with RB was 143 yards on a pronghorn. But he was eating, and I was down wind. Lol. I've been watching Idaho Lewis shooting LR on TCs with 1in 45. Figured you guys would have a little more insight into the process and could give me some pointers into conical shooting. I appreciate your time and help.

 

[58ball]

Good morning 58Ball.
In the rifle you describe I'd probably try one of the 250 to 280 grain hollow base molds as have been made by Lyman and RCBS, and a push through sizer.

This is from some in process planning notes for a project rifle I've been threatening to jump into. A nominally .45 bore octagonal to round contour barrel would be added to a CVA .50 percussion, slimming down the stock, repairing a crack in the fore end and getting rid of the blocky end cap. Make it go to my shoulder like a .22RF. Any how, enough about my maybegonnadoitsomeday project. These notes are included just because it provides a little info put together so far on those diameters of molds and maybe it mite be of some use to you.

Mold No.​	Make​	Diameter​	Weight​	Paper​	Comments​	.458NE PP?​	Forward?​
45 Maxi	TC
454613 New	Lyman		265		Has plain base and hollow base plugs.	Could paper patch as-is.	C ring .450"Ø base plug
45-280	RCBS	0.444"	280	Brown filter paper.	.525"Ø plug	Could be enlarged to smooth sided.	Could turn this into a PP for the .52 rifles.
445-ED	Challenger?	0.445" (.443"-.447")	262		Flat nose wadcutter.
445599	Lyman	0.445"	250		Base plug is missing.
445369	Lyman	0.445" (.444-.446")	291
450229	Lyman	0.455" on bands. 0.445" on plug.	155		Base plug is missing.		Use in Pietta revolver?
454613 Old	Lyman	0.456"			Has interchangeable base plugs.
460-236-SP-BH5	NOE	0.460"	236		Plain base.

It's definitely a helping hand. I appreciate the information. Now I have a starting point.

 

[58ball]

@58ball, what is your intended use for the rifle? Hunting or long range shooting? Each of these will require a different conical bullet for optimal performance. For hunting, a round ball will provide acceptable performance at close ranges of 75 yards or less.

By the way a 1 in 47" is not a fast twist for a muzzle loader. Some may say so, but that is somewhat misleading. It will work for a conical bullet and a loading procedure for a patched round ball can be developed to be quite accur

58ball,
A twist to all this you mite want to consider is that if you find a set of iron blocks such as some of those in that listing, it wouldn't be real difficult to remove the lube grooves from the mold. Sometimes the lube grooves are beneficial because they help the paper patch stay in place. And of course, lube grooves can help to stabilize the bullets. But, some prefer to have the bullets smooth sided.

I'm hoping Idaho Lewis might chime in eventually. He's been shooting LR on TCs with this twist rate for a while. I believe he has a few custom molds he's had designed that are smooth sided like you mentioned. I'm aware of the maxi balls for TCs, but figured with all of us here there's alot of knowledge I could draw from. Personally I've been shooting RB for over 20 yrs, and conical in pistols for about 8yrs. But paper patching and conical bullet in a rifle is a new one for me. I appreciate your time.

 

[SDSmlf]

I intend to use it in LR target shooting primarily, but am also going to hunt with it.I live In a plains area. So reaching out 2-400 yards is not uncommon at all. I have 12 muzzleloaders, and have been a round ball 1in 60 shooter for over 20 years. Best shot with RB was 143 yards on a pronghorn. But he was eating, and I was down wind. Lol. I've been watching Idaho Lewis shooting LR on TCs with 1in 45. Figured you guys would have a little more insight into the process and could give me some pointers into conical shooting. I appreciate your time and help.

I'm hoping Idaho Lewis might chime in eventually. He's been shooting LR on TCs with this twist rate for a while. I believe he has a few custom molds he's had designed that are smooth sided like you mentioned. I'm aware of the maxi balls for TCs, but figured with all of us here there's alot of knowledge I could draw from. Personally I've been shooting RB for over 20 yrs, and conical in pistols for about 8yrs. But paper patching and conical bullet in a rifle is a new one for me. I appreciate your time.

First thing I would suggest is to find an accurate range finder. A very accurate one that can distinguish game in a field or woods at whatever distance you plan to hunt. And I am not talking about ranging an elk in an open snow covered field. Once you get past 200 yards or so, any error in distance, no matter how small, can make a big difference with traditional muzzleloaders shooting bore size bullets.

I have watched some of Idaho Lewis’ videos. Shooting multiple shots at known distances off of a solid rest (hood of a pickup) is different than that one shot at moving game at an unknown distance with seconds to figure things out without a pickup truck hood as a rest with no time limit. Though I am am not saying the man or his guns can not shoot.

I have been shooting paperpatched bullets in a 1-30 twist barrel for about 10 years. I can ring a 12” steel gong at 300 yards at my ‘home range’ all day long with 400 grain plus bullets. I would not consider a shot past 150 yards at whitetail size game. Probably 175 max at an elk. And only if I had confidence in the range.

I have tried a number of 1-48 TC 45 caliber barrels and hitting that 300 yard 12” steel gong on the first shot has proven to be iffy. Doesn’t mean it can’t be figured out. With a variety of bullets, find hits 50% of the time to be about as good as I can get on first shot out of a cold 1-48 barrel using cross sticks. Might just be me, as I am not an Idaho Class shooter. Personally drive an F250 and find the hood too high and difficult to shoot off of, plus I tend to park it and not take it to my hunting stand.

And now, from a practical hunting perspective, check out posts here and on other forums from a guy going by the handle of @Idaho Ron. He doesn’t get too technical and has plenty of practical information in his posts and videos without the smoke and mirrors you may find in some others’, at least in my opinion.

 

[nkbj]

Good morning again 58ball,
When I went down that road I chose to get a 38" long one inch across the flats .520" bore, 28" twist and .003"/.004" groove depth to let me patch commonly available off the shelf fifty caliber rifle molds (generally 450 grains and heavier). I knew going in what would work and how far away I wanted hunting accuracy, thence the barrel specifications. I also shoot a .458" bore with 24" twist, .470" groove diameter (again, off the shelf molds).

Said that to say this...
I'm thinking that a .45 bore with four foot twist is liable to get picky about bullet design, that you'll need to take advantage of the shuttlecock effect. You can see that in some of Idaho Lewis's pictures of the hollow based fifty caliber design he used in a TC Renegade with 48" twist. Reducing the diameter to .45 with the same twist is going to push the engineering even further that he did. I'm looking forwards to seeing what you come up with.

I'm including some photos here just for visuals on what some of the industry standard .44/.45 hollow bases look like.

Lyman #445369

 

[nkbj]

Lyman #445599

 

[nkbj]

RCBS #45-280

 

[harleysboss]

Idaho lewis will most likely not be responding to your post. He packed up his shooting box and signed off the forums over a year ago. Most of his TC 45 long range shooting was done with after market barrels with a fast twist both GM LRH 1-30 and a Rice I believe 1-20 twist. Not sure if he did much with the standard 1-48 in a 45. He did a lot of testing with a 1-48 in his 50 cals and had good results using a mold made for him by Accurate molds. Plugging numbers in a basic twist calculator is going to show a quite short stubby bullet in a 45 cal with 1-48 twist. Short and stubby not ideal for long range work. If you really want to have some success at the longer ranges I would keep my eye out for a GM LRH in either 45 or 50 cal they are 1-30 and 1-28 respectfully. They both drop into your TC stock. Not cheap anymore but they are nice barrels and shoot the longer heavier PP and conicals very well. I've got 2 of the GM LRH 50 barreled rifles and they shoot lights out.

 

[Bad Karma]

Idaho lewis will most likely not be responding to your post. He packed up his shooting box and signed off the forums over a year ago. Most of his TC 45 long range shooting was done with after market barrels with a fast twist both GM LRH 1-30 and a Rice I believe 1-20 twist. Not sure if he did much with the standard 1-48 in a 45. He did a lot of testing with a 1-48 in his 50 cals and had good results using a mold made for him by Accurate molds. Plugging numbers in a basic twist calculator is going to show a quite short stubby bullet in a 45 cal with 1-48 twist. Short and stubby not ideal for long range work. If you really want to have some success at the longer ranges I would keep my eye out for a GM LRH in either 45 or 50 cal they are 1-30 and 1-28 respectfully. They both drop into your TC stock. Not cheap anymore but they are nice barrels and shoot the longer heavier PP and conicals very well. I've got 2 of the GM LRH 50 barreled rifles and they shoot lights out.

He did however leave us with a dandy mold for T/C rifles. It’s the 45-340I bullet from accurate molds. I have one of these and it’s a great bullet for a slower twist like the OP’s 1:47 but I’ve had good results using it in my 1:20 Hoyt rebored Hawken barrels.

 

[nkbj]

Wow! That's a good looking bullet!

 

[ETipp]

From quite a few dead critters, its hard to beat a Maxi Ball. They do not expand but they don't have to. I have never had a critter go more than a few yards after being hit by a Maxi Ball.

I have a few .32 caliber Maxi Balls but have yet to try them in my Crockett Squirrel Rifle.

 

[Bad Karma]

I’ve never gotten gilt edged accuracy at long range from maxi balls but other than that you’re right, for hunting thin skinned big game the maxi balls are more than sufficient at typical ranges and velocities.

 

[ETipp]

I’ve never gotten gilt edged accuracy at long range from maxi balls but other than that you’re right, for hunting thin skinned big game the maxi balls are more than sufficient at typical ranges and velocities.

I agree with you. They flat out put critters down. I have killed elk with a .50 Maxi Ball at over 100 yards. Maybe not the best longer distance conical but they have never let me down.