Conical bullets in a cap and ball revolver

[nkbj]

Honestly, I don't know. I read through the entire thread, even going through all the linked materials. Looked at other forum discussions from the last decade. Civil War soldiers used conicals, so the folks at the time must've saw something that made the conical seem so much better. But today, we're still arguing if it is, so maybe the military leaders falsely believed the conicals were the superior round. We do know they shot further, which is maybe why they pushed for the conical shift quickly even though effective lethal range didn't change too much. I guess we'll never know which round is better.

I'll stick with the cheaper one.

Hey there.
Minie balls versus revolvers is an apples and oranges thing. 400 to 500 grain rifle bullets greater than a half inch in diameter had little in common with revolvers except for flying lead.
The real plus for shooting pointy bullets in revolvers was getting through the clothing.

 

[Whitworth]

Honestly, I don't know. I read through the entire thread, even going through all the linked materials. Looked at other forum discussions from the last decade. Civil War soldiers used conicals, so the folks at the time must've saw something that made the conical seem so much better. But today, we're still arguing if it is, so maybe the military leaders falsely believed the conicals were the superior round. We do know they shot further, which is maybe why they pushed for the conical shift quickly even though effective lethal range didn't change too much. I guess we'll never know which round is better.

I'll stick with the cheaper one.

JMHO but in addition to the ballistics I believe it's easier to make a cartridge with an elongated projectile for a revolver's than a ball. The conical provides more surface area to attach the powder charge, no matter it be contained in paper, skin or foil. YMMV

 

[Dmalikhammer4]

The real plus for shooting pointy bullets in revolvers was getting through the clothing.

So you believe the ballistics and "damage" components of the conical were only relevant for the rifles? And that it didn't really translate into low-power revolvers? Besides getting through clothes.

 

[B P Arn]

...The real plus for shooting pointy bullets in revolvers was getting through the clothing.

Wait... what? I have a really hard time believing that.

 

[Smokerr]

Some Pietta models do not have this cut out.

Mine (58 Rem Style) has the cutout, the rammer intruded into that space. It is not only the wrong shape for a Conical, it also squishes a round ball

I cut back the rammer a bit to allow the vertical space (the slot cutout in the frame was fine for a JD type bullet) and shaped the cavity to where it seats a conical or a round ball wihtout smooshing it.

I can do some fiddly low level metal work like that, otherwise if you have a Pietta and want to try a JD type, either do a bit of cutting and shaping or get a Uberti rammer shaped right (no I can not vouch for fit)

As a side note, I also have an ASP NMA and its rammer will accommodate conical and round as well as allow a JD type to be loaded.

No idea why Pietta can't get the right shape but at least on the 58 Remington style, its not even round ball friendly, its more a cross band in the end of the rammer.

 

[Bad Karma]

Not historically accurate but I have taken an end mill to the rammers on a couple of pistols so that loading the conical reshapes it from a pointed to a flat nosed bullet. It works well and flat point bullets perform well on both targets and game.

 

[M. De Land]

Not historically accurate but I have taken an end mill to the rammers on a couple of pistols so that loading the conical reshapes it from a pointed to a flat nosed bullet. It works well and flat point bullets perform well on both targets and game.

Yup, done the same myself.

 

[Dmalikhammer4]

Not historically accurate but I have taken an end mill to the rammers on a couple of pistols so that loading the conical reshapes it from a pointed to a flat nosed bullet. It works well and flat point bullets perform well on both targets and game.

Do you think the flatheads perform better than round-balls?

 

[Bad Karma]

Do you think the flatheads perform better than round-balls?

Yes. They’re as accurate given full power loads and with good powder, Swiss 4f, Swiss 3f, or Triple 7 3f, velocity is close and the additional weight gives sufficient penetration for even medium sized game like deer. If I only shot at the range I might favor round ball but these are field guns for me.

 

[springfield art]

It's really cool that some like to experiment with the conicals. I don't have the patience, so the rounders are fine!

A few thoughts on conical's in a cap & ball revolver:

Loading them causes a lot more wear on the loading lever and parts because sheering off a long length of lead is much more difficult than sheering off the small area on a ball. This can cause the parts to fail.

The conical should have a short length at the base that is a smaller diameter than the chamber. This helps to align the bullet with the chamber. Without this pilot, aligning the bullet before ramming it into the chamber is very difficult and ramming it without it being aligned will damage the bullet making it inaccurate.

Usually the accuracy isn't any better than a round balls accuracy.

The muzzle velocity will be slower with the bullet because of the additional weight

A look at the conical's actually used in the Remington and Colt reveals that they were quite short. Not much longer than the size of the bore. This allowed them to be loaded into the gun without enlarging the clearance cut that is machined into the gun.

Good points! Thanks.,

 

[Dude]

So you believe the ballistics and "damage" components of the conical were only relevant for the rifles? And that it didn't really translate into low-power revolvers? Besides getting through clothes.

dang! that there is downright funny! Thanks for the laugh.
(you were joking, right?)

 

[Smokerr]

Yea, tests were done on the M1 carbine and its failure to penetrate Chinese winter cloths. Myth. Failure is military bullets just poke holes in things, sigh.

At some power level shape may become a factor but pretty much as long as its in the air its going to penetrate and it don't matter ball or conical.

 

[Maven]

Late to this thread, but I once tried an elongated bullet in my Euroaroms 1858 Rem. NMA. (The operative word is once.)

The particulars were: A Lee Precision .452" Keith design, which I cast and sized to .451" to fit the bbl. of my pistol. The powder charge was 25gr. FFFg, with no felt over powder wad as I recall.

Observations: Seating normally and straight was almost impossible without removing the uncapped cylinder from the gun. 25 yd. accuracy (rested) was terrible. Test #2 was with the same except for inverting the bullet, which made it easier to load, but accuracy at the same distance wasn't especially good. The inverted bullet made nice round holes in the target though! Since I was primarily interested in accuracy, I concluded that a .451" RB which I also cast from a Lee mould + a felt OP wad was the better and more accurate choice.

 

[Bad Karma]

Late to this thread, but I once tried an elongated bullet in my Euroaroms 1858 Rem. NMA. (The operative word is once.)

The particulars were: A Lee Precision .452" Keith design, which I cast and sized to .451" to fit the bbl. of my pistol. The powder charge was 25gr. FFFg, with no felt over powder wad as I recall.

Observations: Seating normally and straight was almost impossible without removing the uncapped cylinder from the gun. 25 yd. accuracy (rested) was terrible. Test #2 was with the same except for inverting the bullet, which made it easier to load, but accuracy at the same distance wasn't especially good. The inverted bullet made nice round holes in the target though! Since I was primarily interested in accuracy, I concluded that a .451" RB which I also cast from a Lee mould + a felt OP wad was the better and more accurate choice.

That was doomed to fail from the start. Seating the bullet straight, (or easily using the loading lever on the gun) requires the bullet be cast with a rebated section, chamber diameter or less. It doesn’t need to be terribly long, just long enough to start the bullet into the chamber. Accuracy with conical could probably rival ball ammunition with due care but using field loading techniques a good revolver is capable of 5-6” at 50 yards.

 

[sethwyo]

In the carbon county museum down in Rawlins there are some lead balls that were made for cap and ball revolvers likely the 1851 model Navy that was issued to troops in that area , it's a round ball for that pistol but it has a flat knuckle around it.

Maybe someone on here has a picture of this they can post.

 

[Sparkplug]

Lee makes a conical bullet mould for BP revolvers.

I use the Lee R.E.A.L. bullet. Dropped a deer with it at the beginning of the season.

 

[Bad Karma]

I use the Lee R.E.A.L. bullet. Dropped a deer with it at the beginning of the season.

I’ve heard of people using those. A 200 grain bullet?

 

[Sparkplug]

I’ve heard of people using those. A 200 grain bullet?

Yes.

As many have stated before, there was no improved accuracy over the round ball. That came from load development. The only advantage was the heavier bullet giving more penetration at the desired range.

 

[sethwyo]

Conicals were the primary projectile for the Walkers and Navys in military service.

Do you have a link or some reference to pictures and information about these conical bullets that were originally used with the old six guns back in the day?

 

[Mknight702]

Do you have a link or some reference to pictures and information about these conical bullets that were originally used with the old six guns back in the day?

Eras Gone

Although the store is closed until March 2nd.