Conical or PRB IN .50 1 in 24 twist?

[Ninering62]

Yeah, except there are laws of physics that apply.

If 1:24 worked great for PRB then folks who make their living understanding internal ballistics wouldn't suggest the much slower twists would they. Every RB rifle would be 1:24 wouldn't it.

What you just explained is exactly why the 1:48 twist was created to bridge the shooting of PRB's & conicals in the same gun.
What many are not recognizing is that, yes, one can " make something work " in a less than " optimal " circumstance, but that DOES NOT mean that just bc it worked " somewhat " that " they were ideal or made to work together.

 

[Ninering62]

I have several books on M.L. rifles/pistols. I used them to guide me on my M.L. trail. I found them to be as accurate with their information as any one would want. The exact load in these books was what has worked for me. I could have wasted a lot of time trying to figure out what a particular load for a particular cal. would work best but my black powder handbook saved me a lot of time. One of the best books was Sam Fadala,s ,"Black Powder Handbook" It has been dead on with the information I used from his book. I also went down the chasing my tail road when I first started shooting these rifles and didn't have any books on the subject. Ironically my choosen loads were exactly the same as I found in the book. With all this said there are reason for inaccurate rifles other than the load but if the rifle doesn't have a physical problem I go by the book.

Smart man & another avid reader. Awesome!

 

[BlazingIron]

Thank you. Your reply is very helpful. I tried to get the mold but they are out of stock. Got some “GREAT PLAINS” .50 cal minie’s. Will see what they do if the weather down here gets below 100 degrees but that may be a while. Thanks again.

 

[SDSmlf]

1:24 is way too fast for PRB.

Yeah, except there are laws of physics that apply.

If 1:24 worked great for PRB then folks who make their living understanding internal ballistics wouldn't suggest the much slower twists would they. Every RB rifle would be 1:24 wouldn't it.

What you just explained is exactly why the 1:48 twist was created to bridge the shooting of PRB's & conicals in the same gun.
What many are not recognizing is that, yes, one can " make something work " in a less than " optimal " circumstance, but that DOES NOT mean that just bc it worked " somewhat " that " they were ideal or made to work together.

Not so sure the faster twists are just something one can make work. As @Grenadier1758 stated, many original Jaegers had what we would call fast twist with their one twist per barrel length guns that were made and used for roundballs with their deeper grooves.

Out of curiosity a while back, I made note of the twist rates of original Jaegers in Shumway’s Jaeger Rifles book (actually a collection of his articles from Muzzle Blasts), and found he only commented on actual twist rates on six of the guns, though he mentioned many of the others were rifled. Now I may have missed a few, and I’m not going back to check right now (many have the book, so please check if you want to), but of the six with stated twists, two were call straight rifling, others 1-27, 1-28, 1-32 and 1-34. Appears the builders of these original guns didn’t know what they were doing with regards to twist rate? Or did they?

I had the opportunity to shoot some original shorter barreled (30” +/-) faster twist (approximately one twist per barrel length) guns while in Germany and Austria. They were using heavier charges of a powder finer than what the experts recommend under a patched roundball in their relativity deep rifled bores and accuracy was beyond impressive. They would hold their own against any contemporary built gun with slow (or fast twist), and likely out perform many from what I witnessed.

 

[Ninering62]

Not so sure the faster twists are just something one can make work. As @Grenadier1758 stated, many original Jaegers had what we would call fast twist with their one twist per barrel length guns that were made and used for roundballs with their deeper grooves.

Out of curiosity a while back, I made note of the twist rates of original Jaegers in Shumway’s Jaeger Rifles book (actually a collection of his articles from Muzzle Blasts), and found he only commented on actual twist rates on six of the guns, though he mentioned many of the others were rifled. Now I may have missed a few, and I’m not going back to check right now (many have the book, so please check if you want to), but of the six with stated twists, two were call straight rifling, others 1-27, 1-28, 1-32 and 1-34. Appears the builders of these original guns didn’t know what they were doing with regards to twist rate? Or did they?

I had the opportunity to shoot some original shorter barreled (30” +/-) faster twist (approximately one twist per barrel length) guns while in Germany and Austria. They were using heavier charges of a powder finer than what the experts recommend under a patched roundball in their relativity deep rifled bores and accuracy was beyond impressive. They would hold their own against any contemporary built gun with slow (or fast twist), and likely out perform many from what I witnessed.

Awesome post. Thank you

 

[Ninering62]

Thank you. Your reply is very helpful. I tried to get the mold but they are out of stock. Got some “GREAT PLAINS” .50 cal minie’s. Will see what they do if the weather down here gets below 100 degrees but that may be a while. Thanks again.

I have a .50 1:24 percussion sidelock. I got really creative with my conical selections for bullets to start testing in it. If you're interested in some different cast pure lead conicals to try, PM me & I'll hook you up with what I'm doing & where to get the bullets I'm testing.

 

[stikshooter]

Ii’m note sure about the rifling cause I’m not at home. I am afraid tou guy are right about having to go with a conical.

Don't be afraid , conicals work and make the critters afraid ! /Ed

 

[The Appalachian]

They were using heavier charges of a powder finer than what the experts recommend under a patched roundball in their relativity deep rifled bores and accuracy was beyond impressive.

And how just exactly close does that come to the OP's situation?

Gotta just love the world wide web when it digs in deep and answers questions with totally irrelevant information.......

 

[Grenadier1758]

In the OP's situation, @BlazingIron has the Pedersoli Hawken Hunter. On the Pedersoli web site, their recommended bullet is a long conical.

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en...nter-rifle-flintlock-model#specificheTecnichehttps://shop.davide-pedersoli.com/e...llets-for-muzzleloading.html#/171-caliber-500
He will most likely end up looking for a conical bullet. He should be able to find round ball to work, but this rifle likely has shallow grooves and the conical bullet will perform better than a round ball.

 

[SDSmlf]

And how just exactly close does that come to the OP's situation?

Gotta just love the world wide web when it digs in deep and answers questions with totally irrelevant information.......

Apologies if you found my post irrelevant, but as I read it the OP asked about roundball accuracy in his 1-24 twist Pedersoli Hawken. Some have posted that it may shoot roundballs with light powder charges only because of the fast twist. With a proper fitting patched roundball j have found some fast twist guns will handle heavier powder charges very well. It will come down to how well the load fits the bore. OP won’t know the real answer until he tries. If he can come up with a tight enough fitting combination there is a chance it will work, even though current relevant internet wisdom says it won’t work. @Loyalist Dave mentioned that Pedersoli recommended patch roundballs for their 1-24 Jaeger. Might be something there. Below is a copy of the OP.

I have a .50 cal Ped. Traditional Hawken Hunter with a 1 in 24 twist Will I be able to get any decent accuracy with PRB or am I gonna have to use conicals?

 

[The Appalachian]

@SDSmlf,

1) the OP wasn't asking about a Jaeger barrel.
2) internal and external ballistics aren't determined by "internet wisdom".
3) what would be YOUR advice if someone asked you what twist to use for a roundball gun?
4) would 1:24 be your first choice? Don't lie now.
5) in today's atmosphere with the shortage and expense of shooting supplies, someone asking a question deserves a straight up answer, not a bunch of he said she said somebody a buddy heard tried it, etc., etc.

The fact is, 1:24 isn't even on the table for rifles purposely twisted for RB. Sure, try it. I predict a very short range trip should tell the tale. It might work, it probably won't. I myself sure don't want to fool with light loads, or overly tight patches over heavy charges, when it's standard practice to just poke a conical down such barrels and roll with it.

 

[towgunner11h]

To Appalachian- That doesn't really check out. Conicals WON'T perform well in a slow twist. But because they must have that fast twist that doesn't exempt them from shooting roundballs. Similar to shooting 55gr bullets out of a 1/7 unmentionable designed for 62gr projos. Works fine.

 

[Grenadier1758]

In the OP's situation, @BlazingIron has the Pedersoli Hawken Hunter. On the Pedersoli web site, their recommended bullet is a long conical.

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en...nter-rifle-flintlock-model#specificheTecnichehttps://shop.davide-pedersoli.com/e...llets-for-muzzleloading.html#/171-caliber-500
He will most likely end up looking for a conical bullet. He should be able to find round ball to work, but this rifle likely has shallow grooves and the conical bullet will perform better than a round ball.

Note: Pedersoli recommends the conical bullet for @BlazingIron's Hawken Hunter that has the 1 in 24" rate of twist.

Pedersoli also makes the Pedersoli Jaeger Hunter Rifle (in flintlock and percussion lock) with the 1 in 24" twist rate. Pedersoli's recommended bullet is the round ball. So, here is a rifle that is manufactured with the 1 in 24 twist for use with a round ball.

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/product/jager-hunter-rifle-flintlock-model
Of course, it is never so simple as a direct search reveals. Pedersoli also makes the Jaeger Target Rifle. What twist rate is in the technical specification for the specified round ball bullet? It is 1 in 65 inches.

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/product/jager-target-rifle-flintlock-model.
We still don't really have a definitive answer. Speculation suggests that the conical bullet should be the choice, but a round ball is also a possibility as a load could be developed that would provide acceptable accuracy on target.

The implication from Pedersoli is that the round ball when used in the 1 in 24 Hunter Rifle will have acceptable hunting accuracy, but for target accuracy the twist rate should be 1 in 65". Note that the Jaeger Target Rifle is sold with a peep sight.

 

[The Appalachian]

To towgunner11h - I'm for sure and certain I never said here that conicals WOULD perform well in a slow twist.

So, you too would recommend a fast twist for RB, such as the OP's 1:24, as your first choice if asked?

 

[deerstalkert]

I have Cabella's custom shop .54 Hawken with a 1-28 twist. close to the op setup but no cigar.
just because i want to increase my post count, i will join the fray.(actually i am immobile today and bored)
my .54 shoots rb into 2.5 inch group at 50 yards. it shoots plains bullets into .72 inch at 50 yards. seems to prefer the conical?
wouldn't hesitate to poke either between the ribs of an Elk. would choose the bullet for competition if ever i competed with someone other than myself.

 

[BlazingIron]

I have a .50 1:24 percussion sidelock. I got really creative with my conical selections for bullets to start testing in it. If you're interested in some different cast pure lead conicals to try, PM me & I'll hook you up with what I'm doing & where to get the bullets I'm testing.

PM coming.

 

[Ninering62]

I have Cabella's custom shop .54 Hawken with a 1-28 twist. close to the op setup but no cigar.
just because i want to increase my post count, i will join the fray.(actually i am immobile today and bored)
my .54 shoots rb into 2.5 inch group at 50 yards. it shoots plains bullets into .72 inch at 50 yards. seems to prefer the conical?
wouldn't hesitate to poke either between the ribs of an Elk. would choose the bullet for competition if ever i competed with someone other than myself.

The .50 1:28 is a good twist that serves a pretty wide range of projectiles at varying velocoties. Its not " great " but it covers a braod spectrum of .50 cal usage. But it doesn't belong on the same stage as the 1:24 twist. I think the 1:24 twist is to the .50 what the 1:18 is to a .45.
If I ever got a gun that couldn't shoot any better than 2.5" at 50 yds I'd get rid of it immediately. Under .75" at 50yds with a conical dictates what you should be shooting in it.

 

[towgunner11h]

To towgunner11h - I'm for sure and certain I never said here that conicals WOULD perform well in a slow twist.

So, you too would recommend a fast twist for RB, such as the OP's 1:24, as your first choice if asked?

I for sure and certain never said that I would recommend fast twist for RB. But knowing that a RB shoots well with slow twist in no way equates to RB not shooting well in fast twist. I believe it came down to facility of construction. Why cut a fast twist spiral if not necessary?

 

[The Appalachian]

I can say one thing for sure....it's more than rifling that's twisted around here.

Anybody have a Goody's?

I'm getting a headache..........

 

[Coolhand]

I think the rabbit has been chased into a hole