Conical or PRB IN .50 1 in 24 twist?

[Relic shooter]

When I started shooting Mls about 60 years ago there was nobody around to help get me started so did most everything wrong.
Some of us old guys just enjoy keeping this part of history alive & helping younger folks out. Never realized I would start a poop-fest by posting statistics on what vintage European barrel makers found effective. We're fortunate to still have a few custom barrel makers around who still make the same type barrels
Seems to be some folks on the forum who are overly sensitive if one doesn't march to their agenda..
relic shooter

 

[Rock Home Isle]

When I started shooting Mls about 60 years ago there was nobody around to help get me started so did most everything wrong.
Some of us old guys just enjoy keeping this part of history alive & helping younger folks out. Never realized I would start a poop-fest by posting statistics on what vintage European barrel makers found effective. We're fortunate to still have a few custom barrel makers around who still make the same type barrels
Seems to be some folks on the forum who are overly sensitive if one doesn't march to their agenda..
relic shooter

I started shooting the black…back in the mid to late 70’s. I had library books…years later, I met a guy that was 5 time Colorado State Muzzleloading Champion…he taught me how to maintain my gun, clean my gun, load properly load my gun, develop loads for my gun…amazing guy, very patient. Started shooting at 13, met Fred at 17…

I miss him…he was a good person.

 

[longcruise]

The issue is, there is a high probability that a fast twist will strip the patching and fail to impart an adequate rotational spin on the ball.

I've seen this stated on the net many times. But... never any evidence offered! Guessing that nobody ever got aboard a ball and rode it down the bore. OTOH, i watched a new shooter shooting the first firearm he ever owned or shot, a fast twist 54 "unmentionable". Four inch 50 yard group offhand with 90 grains of goex ff under a 535 patched ball.

So, repetitious comments on the net are not convincing. Regardless of the source.

My suggestion to the OP is to try everything. It's all part of the experience and learning curve. You have the choice of choosing your answer from the many above or getting your own answer and having full confidence in it.

 

[The Appalachian]

I have a .50 cal Ped. Traditional Hawken Hunter with a 1 in 24 twist Will I be able to get any decent accuracy with PRB or am I gonna have to use conicals?

Yes, BlazingIron, ignore the 4 pages of thread here and just go try it. Please post your detailed load test results. It's the only way for any of us to know what your rifle will do.

 

[sneaky]

And how just exactly close does that come to the OP's situation?

Gotta just love the world wide web when it digs in deep and answers questions with totally irrelevant information.......

Irrelevant in what way? Highlighting a historical FACT that original rifles were shooting PRB in the same twists that internet experts today say shouldn't work? The OP will do what everyone else does, test different powder and projectile combinations and settle on one that suits his needs. Heaven forbid it's one that the internet says shouldn't work.

 

[The Appalachian]

Irrelevant in what way?

As in the depth of rifling was twice as deep as modern production barrels are today, and that matters.

That's why the originals with fast twist were successful with a PRB and modern barrels usually aren't.

Read the whole thread next time, that's been discussed in here already......

 

[Okie Hog]

I have a .50 cal Ped. Traditional Hawken Hunter with a 1 in 24 twist Will I be able to get any decent accuracy with PRB or am I gonna have to use conicals?

For many years i've had very good results using patched round balls in barrels with twist rates as fast as 1/30" but never tried round balls in a 1/24" twist barrel.

Doc White on patched round balls in fast twist rifles:

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/round-balls-in-fast-twist-rifles/

 

[Rock Home Isle]

For many years i've had very good results using patched round balls in barrels with twist rates as fast as 1/30" but never tried round balls in a 1/24" twist barrel.

Doc White on patched round balls in fast twist rifles:

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/round-balls-in-fast-twist-rifles/

2022 Fantastic Link Award goes to you

 

[SDSmlf]

Ok, maybe stretching the forum rules a bit, but maybe not, as the following just references things we avoid here to make a point.

A buddy of mine has the opportunity annually to hunt in various western states as he has family scattered across the west. Just comes down to finances. He has two boys that are coming of age and will soon be joining him on these hunts as they are chomping at the bit to go. My buddy is a straight shooter and rarely offers anyone a break, particularly his boys. I believe the oldest one is only 13, but the kid can shoot. Their father has made it clear that they will have to demonstrate the ability to handle and accurately shoot full power large caliber guns before he will consider taking they. Buddy is using a Hoyt 58 caliber rebored Renegade, but after a wet cold thumb slipped off a sidelock’s hammer last fall deer hunting in NC, sidelocks are out for the time being for his boys.

So I set them up with an in-line made in the 1980s. It has a 1-28 twist Lothar/Walter barrel, and was always accurate with roundballs and conicals. Below is a 100 yard target the older of the two boys shot over the July 4th weekend. 12 shots (he was given two bullet boards preloaded with 6 patched .530” roundballs in each), with a premeasured powder charge of 100 grains of 3F Swiss. Would not call what he did bench shooting, but he as leaning over a table. His father told him that the under 3” 12 shot group was a good start, but considering the gun had a scope on it, he needed to see what would happen with peep sights. I thought my buddy’s head was going to explode with pride.

It’s been almost a month since the above, and the two boys have gone through maybe a couple hundred roundballs with a peep sight now on the gun. They stopped by today and I gave them another gun of the same model to work with, this one in 50 caliber. Also gave them a good supply of conicals (told them they were not to be used for excessive practice, just for hunting) in both 50 and 54, to see what works best for them. Also gave them a few tins of caps. Buddy is now trying to understand the legal age limits for hunting out west, as he is starting to save up money for trip for him and the boys next year. A promise is a promise.

 

[The Appalachian]

How'bout you slug that barrel and tell us how deep the grooves are......

 

[SDSmlf]

How'bout you slug that barrel and tell us how deep the grooves are......

As I stated in my earlier post, I have lent/given the gun to a buddy of mine for his kids to use. About a 90 mile round trip, so slugging isn’t going to happen. I can tell you the rifling is very shallow, likely less than .005”. Here are a couple fuzzy borescope photographs.

Can can also tell you that I remember published reviews of the gun back in the day where it was stated roundballs and prelubed patches improved accuracy, with groups just over an inch. I also remember meeting and talking with the company’s owner, and he claimed accuracy with roundballs (and other projectiles), and roundball loads were listed in their sales literature. Probably have copies of the stuff in the gun’s folder, but that won’t change anyone’s mind. I can only say that the samples I purchased were accurate with roundballs.

The gun that shot the group in the photograph in my previous post likely hadn’t been shot in 20 plus years, but it settled right in where it used to shoot with no adjustment.

 

[The Appalachian]

Less than 5 thou, well, ok then.

Guess I'll just stick with conventional wisdom on this because it's comprised of WAY more than your example of just one.........

 

[Relic shooter]

For many years i've had very good results using patched round balls in barrels with twist rates as fast as 1/30" but never tried round balls in a 1/24" twist barrel.

Doc White on patched round balls in fast twist rifles:

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/round-balls-in-fast-twist-rifles/

Excellent link from Doc White & nice reminder of !
I shot at numerous shoots with Doc in the old days at rendezvous at Idaho City & the beginnings modern day rendezvous at Fort Bridger back in the 60s & 70s. He was always a tough contender to try & beat. The non-traditional in-line actions he built & used at some of Idaho City shoots were my first introduction to what I considered at that period were zip guns as they did produce a much faster ignition than our traditional percussion & flintlock rifles & pistols.
Relic shooter