Conical Range??

[Mad Professor]

A max load with a 58 lyman/investarms, 500+ gr conical is 90 gr FFg

I have shot through a deer and felled an oak behind it with that load. Thought I missed the deer when the tree fell over.......deer was DOA 15yds away

 

[Mad Professor]

I forgot range. Hit a coffee cup at 75 yds offhand, groups open up a lot 100 yds +, might be old eyes?

 

[BrownBear]

...might be old eyes?

Lotta that going around these days. Look at the ages here on the site, and mostly it's us geezers carrying on the tradition.

It's terrific to have some youngsters among us, but dang, I wish they'd loan me their young vision now and then! :haha:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Far more graceful than a PRB. Although a 58 caliber is about like a lead football.

The long range guns often had false muzzles and shot very long bullets. (google the Greenhill formula) There are theories that a 40 cal is only good to about 700 or 800 yards, but the 45 was good to a thousand. I don't know if there were any 50 cal long range target rifles. A friend of mine has the original 4 or 5 page write up from the NY Tribune for the famous Creedmore match. (I have pestered him about getting copies made and so far he is reluctant to take the chance anything would happen to the very old paper) Apparently there were some Confederate snipers who were aces with the 1853 Enfields, which were 58's. I recall reading about an 800 yd kill, by such a sniper. But like Tim Murphy's feat at Saratoga, it might have been the third or fourth shot.

I have seen guys shooting cross patch guns of 45 caliber, two part bullets. (They use ATF for lube) incredible groups at 100 yds. I didn't get to see them shoot to longer distances. i could see them being darn good at least to five hundred yards.

 

[majg1234]

I've got an Investarms 58 and a TC Hawken 58 with QLA muzzle,both of these shoot very well but like a lot of powder.The Investarms likes 110gr ffg 562 ball,20ga wonder wad over the powder with .18 patch.The TC shoots the same basic load but with 100 gr powder.Both these rifles will shoot less than 2" groups @ 60yrd with these loads.Recoil is stout but very managable.I'd say use a PRB and up the powder 'til the groups settle in.Both of my rifles shot poorly with 80-90gr.They shot real good with about 60gr but I considered that too weak for this grand old caliber.when I went up in powder low and behold the groups appeared :thumbsup:

 

[DeRoche117]

Dumb question,....but how does the wad help?

 

[DeRoche117]

Also,....for the hunters out there,...think a .58 PRB is good enough for bear?

 

[pchwcf50110]

.58 PRB will be excellent medicine for black bear

 

[Rat Trapper]

The use of a felt wad over powder helps seal up the bore and protects the base of the bullet. I have seen where my own groups have tightened from their use. The use of a conical is something some here just can not accept. As you may have noticed, the use of a proper hunting load is also something that those who have more expericene on the key board than in the field won't accept either. That does not mean you are wrong for wanting to try. Nor should you give up. Some guns shoot best with conicals, some shoot everything well and others like only patched round balls. find something that will work for you.

Try to do your group testing from the bench with a front and rear bag. Use a 6 o'clock hold to allow you to see better. I have seen some excellent groups shot with conicals. Also taken a fair amount of game with them. They will work once you find the right combination.

 

[majg1234]

for conicals it helps seal the bore and stop some of the leading,for PRB loads helps seal the bore and protects the patch from the large load of fire generated by the large dose of BP.Because of the bore sealing the velocities are more constant (stardard deviation of velocity is smaller) and as a result theoretically speaking more accurate.I've found with PRB I don't need such a tight fitting PRB combo to ring out good accuracy,In fact my 40cal just slides right down over the powder and delivers less rhan 1" @ 60yrds most any day :hatsoff:

 

[pchwcf50110]

The use of a felt wad over powder helps seal up the bore and protects the base of the bullet. I have seen where my own groups have tightened from their use. The use of a conical is something some here just can not accept. As you may have noticed, the use of a proper hunting load is also something that those who have more expericene on the key board than in the field won't accept either. That does not mean you are wrong for wanting to try. Nor should you give up. Some guns shoot best with conicals, some shoot everything well and others like only patched round balls. find something that will work for you

yeah, that's me. can't accept a conical, hence my screen name: 451Whitworth :wink:
i've been down that road with 1-48" twist T/C's (i have 4). they seem to have a decided preference of bullets or PRB's.

 

[Dphar]

My goal is to try and achieve an accurate load so can take this gun on a June bear hunt in New Brunswick. I promised myself I would not take this gun on the hunt unless I was 100% confident with it and therefore plan on shooting it all winter. The outfitter said the range for gun stands would be 50-75 yrds.
I've had two range sessions so far with this gun. First started at 70 gr 2f. Worked up 5gr at a time and whammo, at 85 gr the magical cloverleaf group appeared and I quit for the day. Even reported my findings to the wife who could care less!!!

Yesterday started with 85gr at 25 yrds again to make sure it wasn't a fluke. Same results so back to 65 I went. Figured I needed more powder at that distance so I jumped right to 100gr. Shots were 6-7" at best with no particular grouping pattern. Might not call it a group at all. Bumped up to 105 gr and same thing. Went back down to 85 gr just for the hell of it. Left scratching my head.

BTW, between all shots I would wipe with both sides of a wet patch then give it one side of a dry. Also, I've heard stories of Renegade stocks splitting at high powder charges so I'm hesitant to go much higher. Unsure if the stories are BS?

At 50-75 yards a RB is a far better choice. Shoot 90-120gr of FF or FFF and it will kill any bear in NA with good shot placement and should be very accurate if the barrel is worth a hoot. Use a 570 ball and a heavy ticking patch (blue and white) or 10 ounce denim. With a decent patch lube like PURE Neatsfoot oil loading is not a problem if the crown is good. They need not be soppy wet either just oily. 575 ball might work well too.
Too loose a fit can cause more fouling than tight sometimes.

Finally are the sights tight or loose? If they have any wiggle it could be the problem.

People need to remember that the ML hunting projectile with very few exceptions was always the RB (for several good reasons) until the advent of the TC Hawken then suddenly the RB was useless and (they said) hunters needed the Maxi-ball (or other gee-whiz new design bullet) to kill anything. This is BS of the highest order. But since its written down it must be so :shake:
Kinda like the 7mm Mag and the 300 win Mag making the 30-06 impotent and useless (according to some gun magazines of the time). It was just a lie to sell stuff for magazine advertisers. In one case the makers of bolt action magnums and in the other for the makers of ML bullets.
Did I mention that the bullets often do not stay on the powder and that the the Maxi-Ball is one of the most dismal hunting projectiles (based on actual use by hunters not magazine articles) ever invented?

When wiping between shots try damp patch, just enough water, both sides then dry patch both sides. Too much wet is bad. May take some experimentation to get the water level correct.

Dan

 

[DeRoche117]

Thanks much for everyone's input. I love this forum. Not to start a whole sh*tstorm here, but in another forum I heard the PRB described as the "Crippling roundball". My heart sank. Because I've never killed anything with a PRB, and because people have a tendency to take what they read as gospel, I've had difficulty getting that reference out of my head. So here I went and bought the biggest stinking conicals I could find and have been trying to get good with them to take on my first paid bear hunt in Canada. I will say after reading these posts, I feel much better about the PRB and will definitely try it at my next range session. I have two barrels for this gun, the T/C which is 24" and 1:48 and a brand new Green MT 1:70 which is much longer. One of those two should like PRB. I don't know what it is about the .58, I'm just a fan

 

[reddog]

Your G.M. is a round ball bbl.
Try .570 ball, pillow tick patch, and 100gr 2f for starters...

 

[Stumpkiller]

Thanks much for everyone's input. I love this forum. Not to start a whole sh*tstorm here, but in another forum I heard the PRB described as the "Crippling roundball". My heart sank.

The only failing of the round ball is range. It sheds energy quickly. The solution is to shoot a large enough ball for your prey animal and get close enough to be effective. The marketing hype is for you to buy expensive projectiles, scopes, etc., etc. There is no money to be had in simple round balls and rifles to shoot them. They take skill to build and use instead of just a wallet.

Those who are shooters but lack hunting skills to get close enough have to blame something for their failing - and that is the ball. I had a deer drop without taking a step from a .490" round ball that didn't hit the spine. That can not be improved upon. But he was 11 paces away. Get close, aim well, eat venison. Use a round ball rifle (or smoothbore) like you would a bow with 3X the range and you will do well. Shoot for the lungs and heart.

 

[Vaino]

Have used both PRBs and conicals on elk and both performed well...all fell w/in 40 yds. Formerly only used conicals for elk and then the issue of the conical not staying atop the powder in a clean bbl became evident. The next problem w/ a heavy conical {410 grs} was the excessive mid-range height even w/ high charges of powder. So, the zero range had to be reduced to 60 yds. The last elk I shot w/ a PRB was a "stepped off" 107 paces and the PRB had a 100 yd zero. IMO, if I wanted greater killing power, I'd go w/ larger PRBs. For heavy conicals to render same caliber PRB trajectories, the greatly increased powder charges would produce recoil that would be un-nerving and punishing to some shooters....especially w/ those rifles w/ thin crescent buttplates. Some in my son's elk hunting party still use conicals...nothing wrong w/ that but as explained above, I think the PRB is more versatile....Fred