Conicals and Overpowder "Patch" Wad

[feyx0006]

Okay, maybe I should change my screen name to "Cheapskate." :surrender: Since starting my ML addiction, 95%+ of my shooting has been w/ PRBs. However, I am still working on acceptable 100 yd accuracy with PRBs. At that range I have been able to achieve good accuracy w/ Maxi Hunters. I think I will hunt with these this year. I am trying to glean every bit of accuracy that I can. Many posts tout the advantages of overpowder wads (felt, etc.). I am wondering if I can get the same effect by ramming a lubed patch down before the conical bullet; a "patch" wad in effect. Has anybody had success with this sort of thing? If I can avoid having to buy and cut felt or buy wad "buttons" I would be happy.

Forgive me. I keep hoping that I can pinch my copper pennies hard enough to make them turn to gold. :wink:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't think you will get consistent performance using a folded patch under the bullet. I think you would do better using a filler made of corn meal. About 20 grains in volume is all you need. Corn meal is very cheap. The next best and cheapest filler would be a wasp or hornet's nest. Those are free, provided you wait until Winter, or the next Spring to steal the nest! Let the bugs leave or die before you go after their homes. They usually build a new nest each year, so you can even find them the next summer, sometimes, in good enough condition to give you material to use for filler. Either break off a wad pinched between thumg and index finger, or pull off some material, roll it between the palms of your hands to break it down into shreads, like a pipe smoker might do with leaf tobacco, and then pour the shreads down the barrel. Your RamRod with jag will compress it enough to provide a good gas barrier behind the PRB or bullet(conical). My experience with corn meal is that most of it blows out the barrel, and only a little burns. The burning portion seems to die out before it hits the ground. With wasp or hornet's nest, the material does not seem to ignite easily, lessoning any concern about starting a forest fire. The commercial OP wads don't ignite, and generally hit the ground about 10 feet in front of the muzzle. The cost is very low, about $4 per thousand. The corn meal is cheaper if you buy it in your grocery store, rather than at some souvenire shop. Jiffy muffin mix uses a finely ground corn flour that makes a very good filler, and is sometimes used as a buffer in shot loads.

 

[GreyWhiskers]

I can't see how the patch would seal the bore uniformly. Try some corn meal instead and post your results. GW

OOPS, Paul beat me to it.

 

[BrownBear]

I tried it in a couple of 54's and couldn't tell that it did any good. Felt wads made a big difference in the same guns, however.

 

[feyx0006]

My experience with corn meal is that most of it blows out the barrel, and only a little burns. The burning portion seems to die out before it hits the ground.

Maybe I'll add a little egg and sugar to see if I can make some .50 cal biscuits. :haha: In all seriousness, though, I really appreciate the advice. I'll definitely try the corn meal. I'll also keep looking for the wads at the price you mentioned. The stuff in the stores is FAR more expensive, and I don't seem to save too much online if shipping is accounted for. Hopefully the corn meal will work well, and just maybe I'll get a little snack out of the deal! :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Look up Walter's fiber wads in the member resource section here. Contact him directly.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I would recommend you purchase some felt wads. They do make a difference and you won't need that many if they are just for your hunting loads.

 

[ldykeman]

I am frugal myself, and I made my own by using a 1/2" hole punch on a coil of felt weatherstripping. I can get a whole bunch of wads out of a single coil. I already had the 1/2" hole punch, so I didn't have to spring for one, though.
Larry

 

[feyx0006]

The more I think of it, the more I like the corn meal idea (thanks paulvan... :hatsoff: ). This plan being intended for the slug-style bullets (Maxi Hunter/ball). I now have some Hornady's Great Plains Bullets on the way as well. Many have found decreased accuracy using a wad with a skirted bullet (ramming into and wedging within the skirt perhaps). How does the corn meal idea hold up when compared between skirted and non-skirted bullets. In my mind there should be no problem, but you guys know far more than I.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The wads and fillers are recommended, and intended for use with plain base bullets, NOT hollow base! Hollow base bullets are fired without fillers or wads! Period. If the HB bullet is sized properly, and made of soft enough lead, it is intended that the skirt at the base of the bullet expands to fill the grooves, and seal off the gases. Using any kind of wad, or filler just clogs the HB cavity, changing both the weight, and center of gravity of the bullet when it leave the barrel, causing inaccuracy. Please don't waste your time trying to use corn meal with a HB bullet.

About the only synthetic filler you might be able to use that would not cause such adverse actions to the bullet in flight, might be Puff-Lon, but you would have to make absolute sure that the cavity is squeaky clean of all grease and oil that would " glue " the filler to the cavity. Puff-Lon is so light in weight, even if some of it did fill the cavity, I doubt it would cause the large slug to veer off its intended flight path, and the stuff would not change the center of gravity. ( When the center of gravity is moved to the rear, as it would be if you used corn meal, the bullet will " fish tail" on the way to the target, even when it is spinning. That causes the bullet to lose lots of velocity, as well as be more subject to movement caused by side winds.TYhe result is a lower POI, and one that may also strike wide of the POA, and show evidence of keyholing on paper.)

 

[feyx0006]

Thank you, sir, for guiding me around that iceberg. I appreciate it! :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

FWIW, I have never been impressed with Hollow based conicals in calibers under .58. The .54 cals. work some of the time, but often, the skirt is too thick, and you don't get the needed expansion to seal the barrel. In .58, .62, and .69 caliber rifles, which were designed to use hollow based conicals or " Minie balls", they work very well. I have not seen a hollow based bullet for a .50 or .45 that worked well at all, mostly because these caliber rifles are usually cut with deep grooves, to shoot PRB. Can a .45 or .50 caliber barrel be made that will shoot a hollow based bullet? Yep! I even know a barrel maker or two that have done it. The real question is, why bother?

 

[feyx0006]

Very good to know. Perhaps I'll post my head-to-head results after I get a chance to hit the range (whenever my schedule lightens up a bit).

 

[roundball]

Actually modern conicals such as those from the Buffalo Bullet company and Hornady are not designed with a skirt intended to expand like the old civil war minnie-ball.

In civil war rifles, the minnie ball was somewhat undersized overall to facilitate repeated reloading without the need for wiping the bore between shots, then at ignition the very large, thin, hollow skirt would expand some and give some amount of alignment traveling up the bore.

Modern conicals have driving bands around them to engage rifling, not a large thin skirt...the conical is positioned in the muzzle then punched in with a short starter which causes the ends of the rifling to cut through (engrave) the driving band(s), and this interlock between the rifling & driving band(s) is what transfers the rotation to the bullet when it's fired.

I used Oxyoke prelubed wonderwads with various conicals for a few years back in the 90's...TC, Buffalo Bullet, and Hornady...they all worked perfectly as designed. The tiny indentation on modern conicals that some think is a skirt is too small for a caliber size wad to get stuck in...and/or if that ever happened it never resulted in any adverse effect on accuracy.

 

[Runner]

The Denver bullet company 385 HB HP and the Hornady HB HP both expand into the rifling exactly as the minnie bullets did. Having recovered many of them to get the lead back, the hollow base expands quite a bit. The 385 requires the hollow base to balance the design to preform well in a variety of twists. The 410 solid nose is a fast twist only bullet. There are pictures of a couple recovered from game posted somewhere on the forum.

 

[varanus]

I use the hornady great plains and they expand well. i can use my caliper and tell the difference in not only expansion of the nose but the base. hornady great plains also seem to be the better choice for my renegade and took many deer with my new englander .54.

 

[BS]

The MMP Sub_base's are costly, but work well with the Great Plains bullets.

Make a small measure for the corn meal.[use the same ammount each time] very important!

Also try card stock, then corn meal.

Sharpen down a pc of pipe and make a punch. 1/2" ID.

From one of my old posts:

Wads:

I shoot Hornady 410s with a MMP SUB-BASE, I also shoot a 370 Grain Maxi with
a card wad under the bullet!

My groups wint from 3-4" at 100yds down to 1 1/2 and smaller just by using
the sub-base and the card wad under the bullets. My loads are 90FFF to
115FF, out of my 50.


Some of the WAD links that I have found
[url] http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,246.html http://www.sagebrushproducts.com/ShootingProducts.htm http://www.circlefly.com/ http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=2&subID=37&styleID=118[/url]

Some of the more expensive " Veggie" wads are made from:

Vegetable fiber gasket material engineered to resist high heat & compression
and water resistant.

Or you can make your own with some heavy card stock and a Gasget [Arch]
punch.

Hope some of this helps!
BS