conicals or round balls

[Idaho Ron]

I agree! Ron

WOW! Here we're on a MLing forum that includes many sub-forums and because we don't like to hear other's views that are well w/in the allowed subject matter, we want sub-sub forums. I guess it's human nature to find solace in like thinking orgs., but I for one, accept all views and unless misinformation is proffered, have no criticism of other's views or the present setup. We're one "big happy family"....eh?.....Fred

 

[BrownBear]

That's the way it oughta be, but.......

Words like "historic" and "traditional" are used like clubs, in spite of the real history and tradition. If a guy is interested in things west of the Mississippi in the era between the end of the fur trade and the start of the civil war, he's not going to get a bit of peace.

East of the Mississippi game and hunting had just about died out in favor of farming, and if a guy wanted to shoot game he had to go west. Flint and round balls went the way of the dodo bird because they weren't working out. Cartridge guns were the outcome of the need for more range and power, but before they completely killed off muzzleloaders there was a rich period when folks were using percussion caps and elongate "picket" style bullets for ease, range and power. Heck, there was even experimentation with alternatives to black powder.

That's history, and in that era and region it's also tradition. But if you're interested, the "traditionalists" brand you a lesser citizen and lump you right along with the inliners and sabot shooters.

I don't have any particular desire to shoot that way, but I'm fascinated with the period and the technology. Too bad there can't be a place for a free and honest exploration of it, but it aint going to happen in the current environment.

 

[Idaho Ron]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[fyrfyter43]

I really don't see any need for conicals, especially in N. America. Especially considering that the largest of game on the planet has been taken with a round ball. I have never fired a conical of any kind from any of my muzzleloading guns.

However, I don't mind the discussions about lead conicals. I just stay out of them, since I really have nothing to add. The threads that do bother me are those that turn to talk of copper-jacketed, plastic-saboted pistol bullets...especially considering that this is a forum to discuss traditional muzzleloading weapons.

I really don't see a need for another sub-forum to add to the mix.

 

[buttonbuck]

There is a high positive correlation between ones level of proficency with traditional equipment and level of skill hunting and woodmanship. I perfer more traditional things and seem to grow the more I use them However I am forced at times and by circumstances and rules to use some more modern things. Healthy debate is a good thing. I cannot see making another forum on this I think it would be like debating 2 and 3 blade broad heads for archery. Myself I am hunting with roundballs for the rest of this year another year I may have to use a conical because of the limitations and preferences of landowners where I may hunt. However when It comes down to it the real focus of our efforts and morality needs to come that moment when we take the shot I am not perfect I have lost animals. I guess I would like to see more discussions and energies from our forums wisdoms spent on topics like the moment of truth shots than what bullet humanely takes an animal because they will do it Dead is Dead.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I don't want this to sound mean in any way. Have you ever shot large mule deer, or trophy sized elk?
One thing I have seen in several of these "PRB vs Conical" threads is most of the guys that say a conical is never needed are also looking at it from hunting white tails. White tails are tiny deer. A adult doe is smaller than a yearling mulie. I took pictures of a white tail doe with her fawns last winter. The fawns were the size of my dog, and the doe was smaller than our mulie does.
If all a guy was ever going to shoot is a medium sized white tail buck or adult does, or fawns at medium range I would guess a 50 cal PRB would be fine. Seldom is hunting a cut a dry sport. Elk are HUGE animals. Even with elk they come in different sizes. A calf is as big as a large white tail buck. A young cow is big. A adult cow is huge, a trophy bull is a MONSTER in body size. I am sure that a PRB, at reasonable range, with the right shot placement will kill anything on earth. That does not always happen. The conical has more mass and energy for the same cal. I don't care if someone wants to use a PRB. I don't care if people talk about them. I just don't see why others don't want me and guys like me to be able to talk about all lead conicals.
Ron

I really don't see any need for conicals, especially in N. America. Especially considering that the largest of game on the planet has been taken with a round ball. I have never fired a conical of any kind from any of my muzzleloading guns.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

let me get my video camera while you load up a round ball to go after a grizzly with :haha:

I'll be exactly 1 mile behind you with the cam on Super Zoom! :surrender:

 

[BrownBear]

And this is what I mean.

All-lead conicals are historic and traditional within the discussion of muzzleloaders and the parameters of this site- following the fur trade and extending up to the civil war. They're just not Eastern.

There should be no need to defend their use. In fact, if folks are truly interested in tradition, culture and history, their study should be encouraged.

Dudn't matter. The flack is going to come, and a sub-forum is just going to attract more unless there's some toe stomping to stop it.

If this site's all about pre-fur trade, and Eastern hunting, so be it. That's not our call.

 

[rabjr]

White tails are tiny deer.

I wouldn't exactly say that.

I have no problem with conicals, was actually having fun paper patching conicals and shooting the center of the target out to 125 yards no problem before I discovered Flintlocks. I still have that gun and I'm sure I'll get back to using it someday but right now I'm having to much fun with Flinters and prb, so it's either stuck in a corner of the safe or borrowed from time to time.

You do have to remember though this is a Traditional muzzleloading forum and some people don't want to hear about conicals on some threads.

 

[pchwcf50110]

That's the way it oughta be, but.......

Words like "historic" and "traditional" are used like clubs, in spite of the real history and tradition. If a guy is interested in things west of the Mississippi in the era between the end of the fur trade and the start of the civil war, he's not going to get a bit of peace.

East of the Mississippi game and hunting had just about died out in favor of farming, and if a guy wanted to shoot game he had to go west. Flint and round balls went the way of the dodo bird because they weren't working out. Cartridge guns were the outcome of the need for more range and power, but before they completely killed off muzzleloaders there was a rich period when folks were using percussion caps and elongate "picket" style bullets for ease, range and power. Heck, there was even experimentation with alternatives to black powder.

That's history, and in that era and region it's also tradition. But if you're interested, the "traditionalists" brand you a lesser citizen and lump you right along with the inliners and sabot shooters.

I don't have any particular desire to shoot that way, but I'm fascinated with the period and the technology. Too bad there can't be a place for a free and honest exploration of it, but it aint going to happen in the current environment.

someone who is into the late percussion period and British, Scottish, and Irish muzzleloaders like i am can be hard pressed to find relative topics. i realize that i am in the minority. i shoot alot of conicals out of what the the English call small bore (.451")rifles and keeping in the british theme my PRB rifles are .58,.62, 16 bore, 12 bore, and 10 bore. i think i have read too much Sir Samuel Baker growing up. i got into muzzleloading in 1987 when i was in high school to take advantage of my state's first dedicated ML deer season. i was just like modern in-liner's today. my friend and i each bought T/C rifles and hunted with PRB's. we had bad experiences with those RB's out of our .50 cal rifles and started using conicals with much better results. looking back now we were expecting those .490" balls to get to the vitals at any angle and of course it wasn't happening. lots of long tracking and finishing shots. passing up a rare opportunity (due to our lack of hunting skills) at shooting a deer that our .270's would have no problem tackling never occured to us. i don't think there is a need for seperate headings with bullets and PRB's as i like constructive conversations about the merits of both. what is silly is thinking that eastern pioneers or fur trappers and their equipment and methods are the only traditional forms of muzzleloading.

 

[Little Wattsy]

WOW! Here we're on a MLing forum that includes many sub-forums and because we don't like to hear other's views that are well w/in the allowed subject matter, we want sub-sub forums. I guess it's human nature to find solace in like thinking orgs., but I for one, accept all views and unless misinformation is proffered, have no criticism of other's views or the present setup. We're one "big happy family"....eh?.....Fred

With ya on this one!.... :hatsoff:

 

[fyrfyter43]

let me get my video camera while you load up a round ball to go after a grizzly with :haha:

I'll be exactly 1 mile behind you with the cam on Super Zoom! :surrender:

The key to using PRB on large and/or dangerous game is size.

Would I use a .50 cal. RB on elk or grizzly? NO. I would use a .54 or .58 for elk. Grizzly I would probably consider .69 or .72 as a minimum.

The point is, you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

 

[fyrfyter43]

I just don't see why others don't want me and guys like me to be able to talk about all lead conicals.

Read my post again. I specifically said:

However, I don't mind the discussions about lead conicals. I just stay out of them, since I really have nothing to add. The threads that do bother me are those that turn to talk of copper-jacketed, plastic-saboted pistol bullets...especially considering that this is a forum to discuss traditional muzzleloading weapons.

 

[larry wv]

Well said Idaho Ron. Like the fellow said getting to the vitals at any angle is why I hunt with a Maxie if I realy don't want to pass up a other wise ok shot. Doe hunting I use prbs most of the time. Larry

 

[dbutch]

i sight in for 50 yards.........probally never going to shoot over that by much.....hunt in the pines so you dont have any long shots.....at my age eyes arent what they used to be......

I think you just answered your own question! If your in doubt of the rb go to larger ball-you did not say what cal. your GPR is is it 50 or 54 cal.

More mass on target wins every time. I shot my first rb deer a week ago with a T/C Renegade 1-48 54 flint-I was impressed with this round ball- 40 yard shot pass through spine.My 54 cal. GPR 1-60 flint shoots even better. If you want more mass go with a 58-or 62 cal there are shooters here that hunt with up to 72 cal. that is more than enough round ball at your seeing and shooting ranges!Good luck I find larger cal. to my liking.My new Rice .62 barrel should be here anyday.

side note: I shot lead conicals for 20 years- 0 lost game when hit-A large ball will do the same.Dead is Dead!
My 52 year old eyes view from the cheap seats!

 

[tg]

"but before they completely killed off muzzleloaders there was a rich period when folks were using percussion caps and elongate "picket" style bullets for ease, range and power. Heck, there was even experimentation with alternatives to black "

I would like to hear more about the extensive use of the easily loaded picket bullets, and just being solid lead does not make a comical traditional, at least I have not found any of the makers of these to make such claims, I suspect they would if they thought it was proper. I do think a seperate forum for the comicals would be a good idea, I for one could find a better place to lift my leg. It would not hurt to give it a try, I don't think it should be named the traditional comical forum though as there is a difference twixt the old and new whether anyone cares to admit it or not.As long as the PRB and modern comicals are in the same forum there will be debates on whether the latter belongs on a traditonal based forum, no matter what the forum rules, state game laws, or those lacking in historical interest say, it is the nature of the beast.

 

[Vaino]

SO.....?....Fred

 

[longcruise]

As long as the PRB and modern comicals are in the same forum there will be debates on whether the latter belongs on a traditonal based forum, no matter what the forum rules, state game laws, or those lacking in historical interest say, it is the nature of the beast.

As regards forum rules on this forum, I think they are pretty clear; up to the civil war period. That would include any and all conicals in use up to that time. I'm no expert on what was in use but it seems to be very limited.

As to pickett bullets, those who have actually given them a try seem to report that they are very finicky and accuracy is elusive without some special loading tools. I have no first hand info. Notice that conical posts in this forum are rarely, if ever, on the subject of pickett bullets. The conical shooter is typically looking for an "improvement" over the truelly traditional projectiles so that's what we see coming up frequently here. Only occasional posts show up regarding traditional minies. Probably because the traditional guns used to shoot them don't have a large following. Too bad! The guys who are set on shooting maxi or buff or whatever conical would probably be well served with a .58 musket and a CW minie!

I would have no problem with the site absolutely limiting the discussion to period correct conicals. I'm not an anti conical or anti anything for that matter. Just willing to go with whatever the rules are.

There was certainly a rich, though short, period of muzzle loading that extended beyond the period defining this forum. A period that included the use of a variety of conicals in long range guns but the forum rules are the forum rules!

 

[Idaho Ron]

I am amazed that there is 3 pages of replys on the tree stand vs ground blind. And there is 3 pages on using a trail camera. But the thing that will be the end of the forum is ANY talk at ALL about all lead conicals.
Trail camera's = OK
Tree Stands = OK
Gortex = OK
Conicals = BAD!!!

Ron

 

[Little Wattsy]

I am amazed that there is 3 pages of replys on the tree stand vs ground blind. And there is 3 pages on using a trail camera. But the thing that will be the end of the forum is ANY talk at ALL about all lead conicals.
Trail camera's = OK
Tree Stands = OK
Gortex = OK
Conicals = BAD!!!



Ron

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hatsoff: :wink:
I thinks you have a GOOD Point!