conicals or round balls

[BS]

I am amazed that there is 3 pages of replys on the tree stand vs ground blind. And there is 3 pages on using a trail camera. But the thing that will be the end of the forum is ANY talk at ALL about all lead conicals.
Trail camera's = OK
Tree Stands = OK
Gortex = OK
Conicals = BAD!!!

Ron

Ron, that is only for the new modern conicals....maybe if you have had them for 30 or 40 years, they may be not so modern! :wink:

 

[tg]

" The conical shooter is typically looking for an "improvement" over the truelly traditional projectiles so that's what we see coming up frequently here"

That is exactly my point,it is very clear and easy to understand, so I expect the poll to reflect the level of "Tradition" that the forum rises to, gun, sights, projectiles this make a hunting rig, talking about gore-tex or riding horses to be traditional and a lot of other stuff is just a smoke screen to take the attention away from the very simple statement about modern conicals above.Some wil not accept that the rig they are using is basicaly a 45/70 or 50/105 with improved bullet and minus the cartridge, nothing wrong with this, it just defeats the developement of a truly traditional outfit compared to those of the past. The facts do not classify these bullets as traditional,according to their manufactures and most folks with any gun history under their belts, they are a product of modern ballistic R&D.They are most likely to deeply imbedded in the sport to make any changes in hunting regs now, that time has came and past.

 

[roundball]

I am amazed that there is 3 pages of replys on the tree stand vs ground blind. And there is 3 pages on using a trail camera. But the thing that will be the end of the forum is ANY talk at ALL about all lead conicals.
Trail camera's = OK
Tree Stands = OK
Gortex = OK
Conicals = BAD!!!

Ron

Actually, I agree with your examples...we should not discuss trail cameras, tree stands, gore-tex, or conicals in the "Traditional Muzzleloader Hunting" category.

Such items should / could be discussed in a new category called "General Hunting" or the existing "Non-Muzzleloading" category

 

[tg]

"Actually, I agree with your examples...we should not discuss trail cameras, tree stands, gore-tex, or conicals in the "Traditional Muzzleloader Hunting" category."

I would agree except that "modern conicals" rather than all conicals would be out of place there. I think this is where the dots are not being connected in general by most folks who use conicals,and I think it is not from lack of information or understanding of the terminology.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I am amazed that there is 3 pages of replys on the tree stand vs ground blind. And there is 3 pages on using a trail camera. But the thing that will be the end of the forum is ANY talk at ALL about all lead conicals.
Trail camera's = OK
Tree Stands = OK
Gortex = OK
Conicals = BAD!!!

Ron

We are all at different stages of our journey. My job as moderator is to make sure we generally keep on the same trail and, most certainly, in the same direction.

You know, one of the great advantages here is that if there are posts that gall you you can simply stop reading them and move along; and even block the user names that routinely upset you.

 

[hawk]

at the distances that I take game 15-80 yards I see no real advantage to conicals over round balls .RBS deliver plenty of energy to do the job.

game shot with proper placement of a round ball will end up on the table the same as one with a conical.

I have tried to make my .45 T/C a big game gun with heavy conical bullets when money was tight for a new bigger bore ,and had good results.
it was that or use a centerfire ....so a little tradional was better than none at all JMHO.

 

[ryoung14]

To me, hunting, whether traditional or otherwise, should be about effectively and humanely harvesting game. In pursuit of that goal, shot placement reigns supreme.

The PRB from a slow twist barrel has proven to be the consistently most accurate, in my experience. The older conical designs (minie, maxi, Great Plains) have been an expensive mixed bag for me. Some days these bullets will shoot very well from a given gun; other days I get unexplained "flyers". As a result of this, I'm reluctant to hunt with them...though I have used them successfully.

OTOH, I have found that some of the modern conicals (powerbelts, some sabotted pistol bullets) shoot as well and as consistently as the PRB. Some even shoot to the same POA as the PRB from a given gun.

Since the goal is the effective and humane harvesting of game, the welfare of the animals harvested should trump the hunter's enjoyment of the "traditional experience". That being the case, I don't hesitate to use modern projectiles when the situation calls for them.
Bob

 

[longcruise]

To me, hunting, whether traditional or otherwise, should be about effectively and humanely harvesting game. In pursuit of that goal, shot placement reigns supreme.

The PRB from a slow twist barrel has proven to be the consistently most accurate, in my experience. The older conical designs (minie, maxi, Great Plains) have been an expensive mixed bag for me. Some days these bullets will shoot very well from a given gun; other days I get unexplained "flyers". As a result of this, I'm reluctant to hunt with them...though I have used them successfully.

OTOH, I have found that some of the modern conicals (powerbelts, some sabotted pistol bullets) shoot as well and as consistently as the PRB. Some even shoot to the same POA as the PRB from a given gun.

Since the goal is the effective and humane harvesting of game, the welfare of the animals harvested should trump the hunter's enjoyment of the "traditional experience". That being the case, I don't hesitate to use modern projectiles when the situation calls for them.
Bob

Ya got me confused! . Nothing in the first three paragraphs of your reply seem to support your fourth paragraph and nothing in the fourth paragraph would seem to support your final conclusion.

Not trying to discredit your choice. Just don't see anything to support the idea that choosing a conical, power belt or sabot is more humane.

 

[rabjr]

To me, hunting, whether traditional or otherwise, should be about effectively and humanely harvesting game. In pursuit of that goal, shot placement reigns supreme.

The PRB from a slow twist barrel has proven to be the consistently most accurate, in my experience. The older conical designs (minie, maxi, Great Plains) have been an expensive mixed bag for me. Some days these bullets will shoot very well from a given gun; other days I get unexplained "flyers". As a result of this, I'm reluctant to hunt with them...though I have used them successfully.

OTOH, I have found that some of the modern conicals (powerbelts, some sabotted pistol bullets) shoot as well and as consistently as the PRB. Some even shoot to the same POA as the PRB from a given gun.

Since the goal is the effective and humane harvesting of game, the welfare of the animals harvested should trump the hunter's enjoyment of the "traditional experience". That being the case, I don't hesitate to use modern projectiles when the situation calls for them.
Bob

Ya got me confused! . Nothing in the first three paragraphs of your reply seem to support your fourth paragraph and nothing in the fourth paragraph would seem to support your final conclusion.

Not trying to discredit your choice. Just don't see anything to support the idea that choosing a conical, power belt or sabot is more humane.

Guess we need to clarify when the situation calls for them....

Seeing most of the game in the East was basically eradicadted by roundballs by the likes of Daniel Boone and company.

 

[Walks with fire]

I was out today in our centerfire season and could have taken several nice doe within my 60 yard preferred roundball distance; one was about 15 yards. I didn't get a doe tag this year so I couldn't take one. Flinter season starts after Christmas and I hope to get the same opportunities I saw today when I have the flinter; we can use our standard tag for both in primitive season. It was awful windy today and the deer were everywhere.

 

[ryoung14]

To me, hunting, whether traditional or otherwise, should be about effectively and humanely harvesting game. In pursuit of that goal, shot placement reigns supreme.

The PRB from a slow twist barrel has proven to be the consistently most accurate, in my experience. The older conical designs (minie, maxi, Great Plains) have been an expensive mixed bag for me. Some days these bullets will shoot very well from a given gun; other days I get unexplained "flyers". As a result of this, I'm reluctant to hunt with them...though I have used them successfully.

OTOH, I have found that some of the modern conicals (powerbelts, some sabotted pistol bullets) shoot as well and as consistently as the PRB. Some even shoot to the same POA as the PRB from a given gun.

Since the goal is the effective and humane harvesting of game, the welfare of the animals harvested should trump the hunter's enjoyment of the "traditional experience". That being the case, I don't hesitate to use modern projectiles when the situation calls for them.
Bob

Ya got me confused! . Nothing in the first three paragraphs of your reply seem to support your fourth paragraph and nothing in the fourth paragraph would seem to support your final conclusion.

Not trying to discredit your choice. Just don't see anything to support the idea that choosing a conical, power belt or sabot is more humane.

Guess we need to clarify when the situation calls for them....

Seeing most of the game in the East was basically eradicadted by roundballs by the likes of Daniel Boone and company.

Situations that might call for modern projectiles over PRB:
-Windy conditions. The heavier conical bucks wind better

-Penetration needed. There's a parallel thread going where some posters indicate that the PRB isn't the best choice for neck shots, due to penetration apparently. I've made some neck shots with conicals. They did the job with no problem. Certainly, penetration wasn't an issue.

-Short barrel preferred. My PRB shooters all have long barrels (32"). MY shorter barreled guns shoot PRB, but not as accurately. I find a 24" barrel much easier to move about in a ground blind and some tree stands. My short barreled guns will shoot "modern projectiles" as accurately as the longer guns shoot the PRB....and still deliver enough energy at the target.

-Fast reload. I find the Powerbelts and sabots generally easier to ram home for a second shot should it be needed. But, in all honesty, I've never needed a second shot when hunting with a ML.
Bob

 

[tg]

It is in our nature to find an excuse and call it a reason, in most any matter we involve ourselves in, I believe we all are quilty of this at one time or another

 

[roundball]

The main focus in the "neck shot" thread was not about penetration, it was about the requirement for precise shot placement due to the small size of the vitals and the very real probability that deer can & do make quick head/neck movements.

If such movement occurs at the moment the shot cycle is executing it can cause the ball (or conical) to miss the vitals...ie: the neck vertebrae...and with muzzleloader projectiles lacking the velocity and shock effect of a .30-06 bullet, a lost wounded deer can be the result...the thread was all about shot placement and managing risk for a humane kill.

As far as lead round balls go, once an individual takes a few head of game with a PRB and sees the results from actual first hand experience, it's then obvious that there's no necessity for more modern projectiles like conicals, powerbelts, etc. Just match the caliber round ball to the game being hunted, and make good shot placement with it...that's all that's ever been required since they were invented centuries ago

:thumbsup:

 

[longcruise]

Situations that might call for modern projectiles over PRB:
-Windy conditions. The heavier conical bucks wind better

-Penetration needed. There's a parallel thread going where some posters indicate that the PRB isn't the best choice for neck shots, due to penetration apparently. I've made some neck shots with conicals. They did the job with no problem. Certainly, penetration wasn't an issue.

-Short barrel preferred. My PRB shooters all have long barrels (32"). MY shorter barreled guns shoot PRB, but not as accurately. I find a 24" barrel much easier to move about in a ground blind and some tree stands. My short barreled guns will shoot "modern projectiles" as accurately as the longer guns shoot the PRB....and still deliver enough energy at the target.

-Fast reload. I find the Powerbelts and sabots generally easier to ram home for a second shot should it be needed. But, in all honesty, I've never needed a second shot when hunting with a ML.
Bob

Those are all opinions that have been expressed many times in the rb vs conical discussions. My opinions differ but, that aside, my post was questioning your idea that the conical was somehow more humane. None of your above quote-back addresses the concept of "humane". No matter what one decides to hunt with, the idea of humane enters in terms of the decisions made by the hunter when presented with a shot.

Too much wind? It's not a shot!

Penetration? If the angle will not allow a proper hit, it's not a shot!

Short barrel? Energy on target? Not gonna open that can ow worms! :haha:


Fast reload? If that is an important consideration to humane hunting practices, then we should not be allowed to hunt with an ml. A semi auto or at least a slide action should be required.

 

[rabjr]

Situations that might call for modern projectiles over PRB:
-Windy conditions. The heavier conical bucks wind better

In the ranges I shoot, never had a problem with wind. Maybe you should let the deer get closer, or god forbid, stalk it?


-Penetration needed. There's a parallel thread going where some posters indicate that the PRB isn't the best choice for neck shots, due to penetration apparently. I've made some neck shots with conicals. They did the job with no problem. Certainly, penetration wasn't an issue.

I don't believe anyone using a flintlock should shoot for the neck or head. Wait a minute you just might be given a better shot. To much can go wrong even if you made that shot 9 of 10 times. That tenth is gonna suck.

I've made a few neck shots with modern centerfires and conicals and yes they do drop fast.

-Short barrel preferred. My PRB shooters all have long barrels (32"). MY shorter barreled guns shoot PRB, but not as accurately. I find a 24" barrel much easier to move about in a ground blind and some tree stands. My short barreled guns will shoot "modern projectiles" as accurately as the longer guns shoot the PRB....and still deliver enough energy at the target.

Thats fine, whatever works for you.


-Fast reload. I find the Powerbelts and sabots generally easier to ram home for a second shot should it be needed. But, in all honesty, I've never needed a second shot when hunting with a ML.


You'd be surprised just how fast I can reload, not that I need it for the first one but because theres another standing there and armed with 3 tags, I've loaded and dumped more than one before.

 

[tg]

This is an interesting thread, I will just inject thatone of the real points that has developed on this thread is not whether to use modern conicals or not but just don't include them as "traditional" gear it does set a wrong direction for those new to the sport and wanting to use traditional gear, the facts is the facts, I do not see how it can hurt to admit part of ones gear is not traditional and treat it accordingly in the topic threads.bye now!

 

[tg]

And let us stay with the projectile discussion only, to often other items are tossed in to muddy the waters, not intentional I am sure but something to think about.

 

[jethro224]

I have never shot any game using a muzzleloader with anything other than a PRB.

The biggest animal I ever shot was a big whitetail buck.

The farthest I ever shot an animal was 100 yards. Same buck. .490 PRB, 70 grains 2F, pass-thru. Every deer I ever shot with a PRB has been a pass-thru. I can't see well enough to try a shot much farther than 100 yards with open sights.

There is no way I would ever consider using a plastic covered bullet in a traditional Mler. That just ain't right. :shake:

Why would one spend twice as much for a quarter as many? Don't make sense to me...

I just don't see any advantage to using any sort of conical. If a PRB will shoot completely thru an animal, why do I need more penetration? :idunno: If a PRB will be accurate as far as I can see to shoot, why do I need more range? :idunno: A bore-size hole thru a critter, in the right place, will kill that critter no matter what went thru and made the hole.

My thoughts are; Buy 100 roundballs instead of those 20 conicals and get some more shootin' practice in. :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Jim: For those of of us who hunt down here on the flats, where the sky is brown up to the 5,000 foot level from dust stirred up off the farm fields, seeing 100 yds even on a bright day is doing well. However, there are places out West( and a few out East) where people routinely hunt, and have to hunt where shots are well in excess of 100 yds. The air is cleaner, too. You really can see further.

Its the most amazing personal discovery you are likely to make. I thought It was my bad vision that kept me from seeing well enough at 100 yds to make out a deer easily, too. Then I got out West, where I was high above the "crud level" of air, and where the air is clean enough that everything looks bigger and CLOSER to me than I thought possible. Looking across canyons made estimating ranges the most difficult. I could still do it on flat lands, and even along side mountains if I could look up or down the slope. But trying to determine how far the other side of a valley or canyon was became a nearly impossible task. I only noticed the brown air as I was flying back to Illinois during the bright daytime, and the pilot announced the elevations we were dropping to as we neared our destination. From above, that brown air looks like a muddy river, and you can't possibly think how the plane can fly through that stuff!

Conicals probably do have a place out West, and if I were hunting out there, I would not think twice about working up a load for some conical for my guns. Our largest Whitetails are about the size of smaller Mule Deer bucks, and about half the weight of a mature Elk buck. Either a larger caliber RB, or a conical seems reasonable to use on these larger animals.

Like you, I like to stalk in closer to game, rather than see how far away I can shoot and hit them. I get more satisfaction shooting game I get close to than banging away at animals that have NO clue, and no chance to know, I am anywhere near them.

 

[rabjr]

I am amazed that there is 3 pages of replys on the tree stand vs ground blind. And there is 3 pages on using a trail camera. But the thing that will be the end of the forum is ANY talk at ALL about all lead conicals.
Trail camera's = OK
Tree Stands = OK
Gortex = OK
Conicals = BAD!!!

Ron

I'm amazed you said Whitetails were tiny deer!