Well I was out last week getting ready for deer season by doing a little shooting with my TC Hawken 58.Cal. And a guy was beside me with his CVA Optima,ugliest dang rifle I ever saw but anyway when I was done he took notice of the good groups I was getting compared to his. So he asked if he could try my rifle I said sure but what he didnt notice as I loaded it for him was that instead of the 80 grains of powder and a round ball. I loaded him a fullhouse load with a 560 grain maxi hunter. He touched it off and several curse words later about the hit it gave him he said anything that hits like that on the back end must do terrible things on the other. I said it works for me. Went back to do somemore shootin today and he was there again with a new TC Renegade in 58.cal said he sold his Optima he felt underguned after shooting mine. :rotf: