Converting to musket caps?

[westrayer]

I know that nipples are available to convert standard cap to musket cap. But I have seen reports where shooters had trouble with ignition due to the face of the hammer being recessed.
What has been your experience?

 

[Newly O’Brian]

I've done three conversions to musket caps.

All of them, I've had to bend the hammer, so the nipple is CENTER of the hammer nose and doesn't catch the hammer skirt

 

[Frontstuffer070]

Yes what Newly O'Brian said, You may have to tweak the a hammer a bit to get it centered on a musket cap. In my experience they hammer cup isn't too far off. But the hammer face being recessed isn't an issue on any of mine. They set the musket cap off just fine.

 

[Rancocas]

It has been something like 30 years since I built a rifle specifically to use musket caps. It worked well until I ran out of musket caps. At that time, I simply took out that nipple and installed a new nipple that I had with me. That one was for the standard #11 caps. So, with that installed, I just began shooting again with those smaller caps. No problem whatsoever.
Of course, experiences will vary.

 

[tc45dave]

I put a musket nipple on my Investarms Hawken. I didn't need to adjust or move the hammer at all.

 

[cynthialee]

Only reason I haven't transitioned my guns to musket caps is the numerous tins of regular caps I have on hand.
I got 1 gun that uses musket caps and I love those big caps! Much easier for my middle age hands to handle. Much easier to find a dropped musket cap than a percussion cap.

 

[rmark]

I put musket cap nipples on my Pedersoli Tryon rifles, works fine.

 

[kelvinator]

I had a .50 cal TC Renegade that I would put a musket cap nipple on when using substitute powders (Pyrodex and Triple 7).
Switched back and forth with the standard #11 nipple for real BP with no ignition issues.
Depends on the gun mostly I suppose.

 

[smoothshooter]

I've done three conversions to musket caps.

All of them, I've had to bend the hammer, so the nipple is CENTER of the hammer nose and doesn't catch the hammer skirt

What method did you use to bend the hammer?
I have a new 1842 Harpers Ferry .69 smoothbore whose hammer cup is off location some. I have been hesitant to heat and bend it because if I break it it may be almost impossible to get a replacement from Italy, based on their manufacturing problems from a big part of their skilled labor work force being killed by the China Virus.

 

[Notchy Bob]

What method did you use to bend the hammer?
I have a new 1842 Harpers Ferry .69 smoothbore whose hammer cup is off location some. I have been hesitant to heat and bend it because if I break it it may be almost impossible to get a replacement from Italy, based on their manufacturing problems from a big part of their skilled labor work force being killed by the China Virus.

As long as the rim of the hammer nose clears a capped nipple, your best bet may be to just try to live with it. If the rim of the hammer cup is hitting the cap, you may need to bend it.

I’ve bent hammers from sporting locks a time or two, and found it a tricky procedure to get right. You remove the hammer from the lock, clamp it in a fixture such as a vise with smooth jaws, heat the area that needs to be bent red hot with a torch, and then bend it with a smooth-jawed wrench. A MAP torch (with the yellow canister) gets hotter and works better than a propane torch (a nod of appreciation to forum buddy @Howard Pippin for suggesting that). The other thing is that the amount you need to bend will likely be very small… as little as 1mm one way or the other can make all the difference.

Bending the hammer nose of a sporting rifle left or right is easy this way. The trick is in knowing how far to bend it, and that may take several tries. Bending the hammer nose forward or back, on the other hand, is a whole different can of worms. I found this very difficult to do without leaving deep tool marks in the red-hot hammer. It was also hard to avoid distorting the cup in the hammer nose.

Musket hammers are massive in comparison to hammers from sporting arms, and I have not tried to bend one. You would think the procedure would be the same except for needing more heat and more time, but I can’t confirm that.

One other point concerns replacement parts. It is generally easier to find original US military musket parts than reproduction parts, and the originals are often cheaper. The problem would be with interchangeability… some parts interchange and some don’t, and I don’t know about the hammer on your M1842 replica. However, it might be something to keep in mind.

Again, if your musket works as it is, you needn’t worry about having the nipple exactly centered in the hammer cup. I would only try to bend it if there is actual interference.

Good luck with it!

Notchy Bob

 

[Newly O’Brian]

+1 ^^^^^^ to what Notchy Bob said

 

[Timber Wolf]

I’ve changed both nipples on my old CVA SXS 12 bore and two TC rifles to musket nipples. All required bending the hammers for clearance. I bent them cold, carefully, as it was a trial and error process. I clamped the hammers in a large vice and tapped them with a BFH (big freaking hammer). Some took more ‘adjustment” than others but I had no issues getting things lined up.

I know talking about cold bending hammers gives some here vapors and I don’t recommend anybody do anything that they are not comfortable with. But, I ain’t speculating as I have done it four times without drama. The one time I tried heating a hammer I ruined it on the same CVA mentioned above when I built it 40 years ago. The kit came with one very miss-shaped hammer and I tried to fix it but ended up just melting and ruining it. Luckily I was able to quickly source a replacement from CVA back then and all was well.

Your mileage may vary, closed course professional driver, no animals were harmed in filming, do not try this at home.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I appreciate @Timber Wolf ’s comments. One of my rifles, a CVA Big Bore Mountain Rifle, had a misaligned hammer. After three tries with heating red hot and still not getting it quite right due to over-bending one way or the other, I figured the hammer was annealed enough that it would tolerate cold bending. It didn’t need to bend much, and it worked out fine.

I think hammers were sometimes case-hardened in the past, but probably not always, and I’m not aware of them ever being heat treated for hardening. They aren’t typically made of tool steel. The point being that with this heating and cooling, I don’t think you need to worry about disrupting any kind of heat treatment of your hammer. It will affect the finish, though.

Notchy Bob

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I put musket nips on my Pedersoli twice pipes. Good to go.

 

[smoothshooter]

As long as the rim of the hammer nose clears a capped nipple, your best bet may be to just try to live with it. If the rim of the hammer cup is hitting the cap, you may need to bend it.

I’ve bent hammers from sporting locks a time or two, and found it a tricky procedure to get right. You remove the hammer from the lock, clamp it in a fixture such as a vise with smooth jaws, heat the area that needs to be bent red hot with a torch, and then bend it with a smooth-jawed wrench. A MAP torch (with the yellow canister) gets hotter and works better than a propane torch (a nod of appreciation to forum buddy @Howard Pippin for suggesting that). The other thing is that the amount you need to bend will likely be very small… as little as 1mm one way or the other can make all the difference.

Bending the hammer nose of a sporting rifle left or right is easy this way. The trick is in knowing how far to bend it, and that may take several tries. Bending the hammer nose forward or back, on the other hand, is a whole different can of worms. I found this very difficult to do without leaving deep tool marks in the red-hot hammer. It was also hard to avoid distorting the cup in the hammer nose.

Musket hammers are massive in comparison to hammers from sporting arms, and I have not tried to bend one. You would think the procedure would be the same except for needing more heat and more time, but I can’t confirm that.

One other point concerns replacement parts. It is generally easier to find original US military musket parts than reproduction parts, and the originals are often cheaper. The problem would be with interchangeability… some parts interchange and some don’t, and I don’t know about the hammer on your M1842 replica. However, it might be something to keep in mind.

Again, if your musket works as it is, you needn’t worry about having the nipple exactly centered in the hammer cup. I would only try to bend it if there is actual interference.

Good luck with it!

Notchy Bob

I’m thinking of shimming the top inner edge of the lock mortise with a narrow strip of VERY, VERY THIN shim stock ( maybe only .010”) to tilt the lock plate and hammer away from the barrel. While that amount won’t center the cup on the hammer nose on the nipple, it may be just enough of a correction to keep the side of the cup from battering the corresponding side of the nipple.
Or, it just occurred to me I could simply install a .015” washer between the hammer and the step on the square shank that passes thru the lock plate.

Sorry about the typo on the original post.

 

[SDSmlf]

I’m thinking of shimming the top inner edge of the lock mortise with a narrow strip of VERY, VERY THIN shim stock ( maybe only .010”) to tilt the lock plate and hammer away from While that amount won’t center the cup on the hammer nose on the nipple, it may be just enough of a correction to keep the side of the cup from battering the corresponding side of the nipple.
Or, it just occurred to me I could simply install a .015” washer between the hammer and the step on the square shank that passes thru the lock plate.

Option one may create a gap between the lock plate and the barrel. Option two may not allow hammer to fully seat on the tumbler. Remember kit instructions years ago saying to heat the hammer and bend it if things didn’t line up. Nothing new.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I’m thinking of shimming the top inner edge of the lock mortise with a narrow strip of VERY, VERY THIN shim stock ( maybe only .010”) to tilt the lock plate and hammer away from While that amount won’t center the cup on the hammer nose on the nipple, it may be just enough of a correction to keep the side of the cup from battering the corresponding side of the nipple.
Or, it just occurred to me I could simply install a .015” washer between the hammer and the step on the square shank that passes thru the lock plate.

Either of those may work, and would be easily reversible if they don’t. You might even try shimming the lock plate with very thin cardboard or heavy paper for testing before you invest time and treasure into shim stock.

The washer under the hammer has some potential, but if you hold the lock up and look between the hammer and the lockplate you should see daylight. When the hammer is fully seated on the tumbler shank, it should not be contacting the lockplate. Installing a washer should move the hammer out so the cup will clear the nipple, but it will likely contact the hammer and the lock plate, and introduce a good deal of extra friction into the movement of the hammer, slowing its movement and absorbing some of its power. Also, as the washer/spacer wears the hammer screw will need occasional retightening. Just some things to ponder.

Part of the fun in muzzleloading is in problem solving.

Notchy Bob

 

[smoothshooter]

Either of those may work, and would be easily reversible if they don’t. You might even try shimming the lock plate with very thin cardboard or heavy paper for testing before you invest time and treasure into shim stock.

The washer under the hammer has some potential, but if you hold the lock up and look between the hammer and the lockplate you should see daylight. When the hammer is fully seated on the tumbler shank, it should not be contacting the lockplate. Installing a washer should move the hammer out so the cup will clear the nipple, but it will likely contact the hammer and the lock plate, and introduce a good deal of extra friction into the movement of the hammer, slowing its movement and absorbing some of its power. Also, as the washer/spacer wears the hammer screw will need occasional retightening. Just some things to ponder.

Part of the fun in muzzleloading is in problem solving.

Notchy Bob

Either of those may work, and would be easily reversible if they don’t. You might even try shimming the lock plate with very thin cardboard or heavy paper for testing before you invest time and treasure into shim stock.

The washer under the hammer has some potential, but if you hold the lock up and look between the hammer and the lockplate you should see daylight. When the hammer is fully seated on the tumbler shank, it should not be contacting the lockplate. Installing a washer should move the hammer out so the cup will clear the nipple, but it will likely contact the hammer and the lock plate, and introduce a good deal of extra friction into the movement of the hammer, slowing its movement and absorbing some of its power. Also, as the washer/spacer wears the hammer screw will need occasional retightening. Just some things to ponder.

Part of the fun in muzzleloading is in problem solving.

Notchy Bob

Have not had it apart yet, but doesn’t the square hole in the hammer rest against a stop on the tumbler shank? I was going to use a washer that I filed a square hole in and slide it down the shank to the stop. The washer would never touch the lock plate.
Will advise on how it works out.

 

[smoothshooter]

As long as the rim of the hammer nose clears a capped nipple, your best bet may be to just try to live with it. If the rim of the hammer cup is hitting the cap, you may need to bend it.

I’ve bent hammers from sporting locks a time or two, and found it a tricky procedure to get right. You remove the hammer from the lock, clamp it in a fixture such as a vise with smooth jaws, heat the area that needs to be bent red hot with a torch, and then bend it with a smooth-jawed wrench. A MAP torch (with the yellow canister) gets hotter and works better than a propane torch (a nod of appreciation to forum buddy @Howard Pippin for suggesting that). The other thing is that the amount you need to bend will likely be very small… as little as 1mm one way or the other can make all the difference.

Bending the hammer nose of a sporting rifle left or right is easy this way. The trick is in knowing how far to bend it, and that may take several tries. Bending the hammer nose forward or back, on the other hand, is a whole different can of worms. I found this very difficult to do without leaving deep tool marks in the red-hot hammer. It was also hard to avoid distorting the cup in the hammer nose.

Musket hammers are massive in comparison to hammers from sporting arms, and I have not tried to bend one. You would think the procedure would be the same except for needing more heat and more time, but I can’t confirm that.

One other point concerns replacement parts. It is generally easier to find original US military musket parts than reproduction parts, and the originals are often cheaper. The problem would be with interchangeability… some parts interchange and some don’t, and I don’t know about the hammer on your M1842 replica. However, it might be something to keep in mind.

Again, if your musket works as it is, you needn’t worry about having the nipple exactly centered in the hammer cup. I would only try to bend it if there is actual interference.

Good luck with it!

Notchy Bob

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Have not had it apart yet, but doesn’t the

Have not had it apart yet, but doesn’t the square hole in the hammer rest against a stop on the tumbler shank? I was going to use a washer that I filed a square hole in and slide it down the shank to the stop. The washer would never touch the lock plate.
Will advise on how it works out.

Good thinking! You’re way ahead of me, Bud!

That sounds like the way to go.

Notchy Bob