Corn meal - At our last muzzle loading trap shoot one said he was using corn meal instead of cushion wads. It seemed to work.

[SlidePicker]

How did the grits compare with cornmeal? (I tried Quaker Oats and they seemed to do a good job too). I’ve lots to learn about smoothbore shooting.

Grits don't compress much. Corn meal and sawdust do.

 

[Mzzlldrinpa]

Very interesting read here folks. I've always used hornets nest in mine. Never thought about corn meal or other like products. I'm having a small smoothbore shoot for my club members next weekend. I may give it a go with the cornmeal. I know this will be a topic to be discussed. Thank you for so much information.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Cushion wads are pattern busters.

You mean the old story about how the lighter wad, with much more surface friction because of size, somehow goes "through" the pattern and busts it up? That's been debunked with very slow motion photography.

LD

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Have others used corn meal instead of cushion wads in muzzle loading shotguns? The guy that was doing that was using the 1 `/8 dipper for the measure on the meal. He was putting the meal right over the powder, then shot, and then an over shot wad. He said he had seen a demonstration of this on a Youtube video made in England.

There is also the use of Jiffy Cornbread Muffin Mix, IN the paper cartridge with the shot for holding groups tighter. Folks make a paper cartridge that just fits the bore with shot, and then add the Jiffy Cornbread Muffin Mix to the shot by pouring it on top and tapping the sides of the "paper shot cup" so that the mix gets between the shot pellets. This is then loaded intact on the wad that's over the powder. Folks that use this theorize that this works when plain corn meal used the same way does not because the sugar ratio in the muffin mix may melt when compressed during shooting and acts as a momentary binder.

I have no idea as I have yet to try it...

LD

 

[Britsmoothy]

That's been debunked with very slow motion photography.

Slow mo of a muzzleloader Dave?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Slow mo of a muzzleloader Dave?

Well it was a solid wad, not one of them plastic things.
It's also physics
that low mass fiber wad with that massive surface area isn't going to run into the back of the tiny pellets with their greater mass per area preventing them from slowing down as much

LD

 

[rusticbob]

Physics are inconvenient sometimes I guess.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Well it was a solid wad, not one of them plastic things.
It's also physics
that low mass fiber wad with that massive surface area isn't going to run into the back of the tiny pellets with their greater mass per area preventing them from slowing down as much

LD

The physics don't fit the evidence with black powder muzzleloader evidence using large wads afraid.
Only the other day someone reported here the pattern failed thus.
Physics is not a comfort blanket for all scenario's and not a cause for assumption my friend

 

[Black Dog]

A newcomer, backgrounded both in muzzle-loaders and modern firearms, it is with all due respect I caution readers that cornmeal is ground corn; that its grinding inevitably leaves abrasive residue within the meal; and that by following reloading-manual recommendations to use cornmeal as a filler in my mid-'90s development of accurate .38-Special-velocity .35 Whelen loads for small-game hunting and feral-cat control, less than 50 rounds of tests aged the rifling of a newly-rebored GI '03 Springfield barrel to about the same degree that would be inflicted by maybe 6,000 rounds of the caliber's standard-velocity ammunition. Thus -- in the blessed years I lived in real country and could conduct ballistic experiments in my own back yard -- my use of cornmeal filler destroyed a barrel superbly rifled by the late Dick Nickel.

 

[Whughett]

So the powder charge burst is pushing the wad and the wad is pushing the shot load but some how the wad is moving faster than the shot load and winds up ahead of the pellets. Interesting.

.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The physics don't fit the evidence with black powder muzzleloader evidence using large wads afraid.
Only the other day someone reported here the pattern failed thus.
Physics is not a comfort blanket for all scenario's and not a cause for assumption my friend

So the shot pellets and the wad leave the barrel at the same speed,
the shot has more mass and less friction than does the wad, because the shot is lead and comprised of tiny pellets... greater inertia...,
the wad has less mass, and thus has less inertia, plus more surface area than the individual pellets, so more air friction to slow it down...,

So there are many that have "reported" that the wad somehow kept it's velocity and went through the shot..., but that's not what happened. Because it would happen every time... and it doesn't. velocity is velocity.

Of course if somebody has stop motion photography that shows different, I shall say multiple mea culpas

LD

 

[rusticbob]

A newcomer, backgrounded both in muzzle-loaders and modern firearms, it is with all due respect I caution readers that cornmeal is ground corn; that its grinding inevitably leaves abrasive residue within the meal; and that by following reloading-manual recommendations to use cornmeal as a filler in my mid-'90s development of accurate .38-Special-velocity .35 Whelen loads for small-game hunting and feral-cat control, less than 50 rounds of tests aged the rifling of a newly-rebored GI '03 Springfield barrel to about the same degree that would be inflicted by maybe 6,000 rounds of the caliber's standard-velocity ammunition. Thus -- in the blessed years I lived in real country and could conduct ballistic experiments in my own back yard -- my use of cornmeal filler destroyed a barrel superbly rifled by the late Dick Nickel.

Where does this abrasive residue come from? The grinding wheels? How come there has never been an exposé on 60 minutes about this? I have eaten a lot of cornbread in my 70 years, should I be worried?
I call that B. S.
The difference between .38 squib loads in a “rifled” 30-06 barrel, and the low velocity loads in my “smoothbore muzzleloader” are like comparing apples to oranges. Not relevant to the conversation, This is a “smoothbore forum” unless I am mistaken.

 

[Britsmoothy]

So the shot pellets and the wad leave the barrel at the same speed,
the shot has more mass and less friction than does the wad, because the shot is lead and comprised of tiny pellets... greater inertia...,
the wad has less mass, and thus has less inertia, plus more surface area than the individual pellets, so more air friction to slow it down...,

So there are many that have "reported" that the wad somehow kept it's velocity and went through the shot..., but that's not what happened. Because it would happen every time... and it doesn't. velocity is velocity.

Of course if somebody has stop motion photography that shows different, I shall say multiple mea culpas

LD

You are assuming far to much my friend.
The wad need not pass through the shot but merely be bumped into the shot by the huge mass of gas produced from black powder. The wad for a nano second is a piston outside the barrel. The wad is surrounded by high velocity gas, it's whole environment for a split second is moving faster than the shot.The effect on the shot is then to spread.
The evidence from all around the globe gives substance to the fact.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You are assuming far to much my friend.
The wad need not pass through the shot but merely be bumped into the shot by the huge mass of gas produced from black powder. The wad for a nano second is a piston outside the barrel. The wad is surrounded by high velocity gas, it's whole environment for a split second is moving faster than the shot.The effect on the shot is then to spread.
The evidence from all around the globe gives substance to the fact.

So what you are saying is different. Folks have been saying at least here (The States) that the wad was passing through the cloud of shot, not disrupting it from the rear with the gas as it exited. Meaning the wad is accelerating past the shot. This is not so as you and I agree. That's all.

So the gas disrupting the shot column is a regular problem. Especially a poorly fitted wad that lets the gas push past in a very uneven manner, so the shot column moves around the vector given it in the barrel, and you get even worse patterns.

LD

 

[Snydly]

Very interesting read here folks. I've always used hornets nest in mine. Never thought about corn meal or other like products. I'm having a small smoothbore shoot for my club members next weekend. I may give it a go with the cornmeal. I know this will be a topic to be discussed. Thank you for so much information.

Yup... I use corn meal right over the top of the powder and the shot right on top of the corn meal. Used it at our states trap and skeet shoot. When I first tried it at the range on the pattern board, it worked Way better than the traditional wads. No holes in the pattern whatsoever! I was pleasantly surprised. Use it all the time now. Give it a try.

 

[Britsmoothy]

So the gas disrupting the shot column is a regular problem. Especially a poorly fitted wad that lets the gas push past in a very uneven manner, so the shot column moves around the vector given it in the barrel, and you get even worse patterns.

No sir, it all happens at the muzzle. As the whole caboodle leaves the barrel.
Remember, for a split second the gas is suddenly free. That accelerates past the wad. That pushes the wad into the newly emerged shot. Notice I said into, not through, just enough to have an effect. An effect similar to what happens on a snooker table.
All in a millionth of a second Dave.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

No sir, it all happens at the muzzle. As the whole caboodle leaves the barrel.
Remember, for a split second the gas is suddenly free. That accelerates past the wad. That pushes the wad into the newly emerged shot. Notice I said into, not through, just enough to have an effect. An effect similar to what happens on a snooker table.
All in a millionth of a second Dave.

Ok that's much more like what I was taught, that the gasses, not physically the wad itself was messing with the pattern, and if you got a load that the gas was close to being symmetric and not too powerful in it's effect upon the shot column, you don't get the donuts.

LD

 

[Britsmoothy]

Ok that's much more like what I was taught, that the gasses, not physically the wad itself was messing with the pattern, and if you got a load that the gas was close to being symmetric and not too powerful in it's effect upon the shot column, you don't get the donuts.

LD

Negative Dave.
In my tests, years ago now, simply swapping the wad for thin cards prevented the doughnut effect.
This caused me to believe the fibre wad is the problem.
You can't swap out the gas volume. Sure you can vary the charge but I don't know if you have noticed, it's still a huge amount of smoke and flames at the muzzle!
You can though swap out the relatively solid form that is a fibre wad.
By switching to a lighter or looser medium as a wad there is less or never nothing for the high velocity fire to drive into the newly emerged shot column.

If you watch the video at the beginning of the thread you can experience the same evidence countless others have found for themselves.

Now, does it all really really matter?
Not necessarily!
Many a bird will still come down just the same because we don't ever now the exact position of a bird in relation to the patterns position do we.
We may have the best patter in the world but if we fail to get on the bird what is the use, equally, we may have the worst pattern in the world and still get two or three pellets in the bird.
Just stay calm, go shoot, what's the problem....

 

[rodinal220]

I'm going give this corn meal/polenta method a try. I have a Pedersoli 20-gauge flintlock SXS that needs some more patterning. I'll compare the V.M. Starr method and Skychief load to the cornmeal/polenta.

 

[Black Dog]

Where does this abrasive residue come from? The grinding wheels? How come there has never been an exposé on 60 minutes about this? I have eaten a lot of cornbread in my 70 years, should I be worried?
I call that B. S.
The difference between .38 squib loads in a “rifled” 30-06 barrel, and the low velocity loads in my “smoothbore muzzleloader” are like comparing apples to oranges. Not relevant to the conversation, This is a “smoothbore forum” unless I am mistaken.

Not to worry; I attempt to say something helpful in one of my first posts and get called a liar for so doing...., this is obviously no place for me. Congratulate yourself: you have driven me away.