Couple of questions....

[kevthebassman]

I'm as green as can be to muzzleloading, but I've always had an interest. I'm going to be getting my first paycheck from my new job next friday, so I'm going to reward myself and go get a muzzle loader and try to put a deer on the ground with it this year.

I took a trip to Cabelas, and found a rifle that tickled my fancy; the Hawken Carbine.

I liked the carbine as opposed to the full size baisicly just on personal preference. I like a short gun, and I figured that the extra few inches of barrel isn't going to make that much of a difference to me since I'll be shooting through open sights and my eyes aren't the greatest, so I don't forsee any shots greater than about 75-100 yards. I don't think it will be that big of a difference, but then again I could be wrong. If anyone thinks I'm crazy for going with the 21 inch barrel, let me know why. :wink:

I'd also like to know if anybody could point me towards the closest thing to this rifle that I could get outside of Cabelas, as this one is their house brand. I'd like to get this through my local gun dealer if it's at all possible. I like to give him the business. Anything I buy is going to have to be right around the price of the Cabelas gun.($400) I'd like to be able to spend more, but that simply isn't in the cards right now.

 

[bwhoffman]

as a first gun goes, within your 400 budget,
I would lean towards a lyman GPR or a Thompson center Hawken (which is usmade) both great guns
the lyman is a little longer (32 vs 28 inch) and looks a tad more traditional. after market barrels are avil. for each thru green mountain barrel works in different calibers.
and then there is the tried and true spanish made cva's if you can find them. a cheaper gun, but some of the older "mountain rifles" were usa made barrels and are real shooters!

ask lots of questions and you will get tons of answers here!
every one has there $.02 to put in and their favorites.
Personally, I am open minded, have cva's and TC's and will be getting a custom made gun next more than likely from one of the fine builders on this forum.

consider all that YOU will want from a gun, be it target, hunting ect.

have fun with this!

Brett

 

[longcruise]

I'm not a fan of the short barrels in ml guns. I have a .50 cal traditions deer hunter model that measures just over 20 inch of barrel and the best it will do with 80 grains of 3f is 1423 fps. Same load in a 28 inch .50 barrel runs just under 1700 fps. You don't need a whole lot of velocity for deer hunting, but it's still nice to have!

The GPR alrady recommended is a great alternative and probably less than $400 if you order from Graf and sons or some other mail order source. I'd go with a .54, but that's pure personal prejudice.

Whatever you do, welcome to muzzle loading. Hope it captivates you as it has many myself and many others on this board!

 

[spitpatch]

I agree with Brett. Personally If 400 was my limit I would go with the lyman GPR. I have one in .50 and one in .54. I like the slow twist. my 2 cents!!

 

[LFC]

You can get a brand new Lyman Great Plains Rifle via Midsouth Shooters' Supply (www.midsouthshooterssupply.com , I think)for about $400, including shipping. By all accounts, it's a better gun. I hear great things about it with regard to out-of-the-box accuracy and reliability. If you like the Cabela's gun better in terms of size, etc., check out other guns at Midsouth--for example, the Lyman Trade Rifle (which may set you back around $300.) If you're just after a short, half-stocked cap-lock rifle, you might think about the Traditions Deerhunter--I bet you can get one of those from Midsouth for $199 or maybe a good deal less. Also check out DNR Sports --I'd look at this page, for starters:[url] http://www.dnrsports.com/acatalog/Lyman_Muzzleloaders.html[/url]
.
Incidentally, mail order seems to be allowed for muzzleloading guns--unlike the fixed-ammunition modern guns, that require a Federal Firearms License to ship in interstate commerce. That opens up a lot of options. Another place that's worth checking out is Deer Creek -- they don't have a website, but get a copy of their catalogue. They're a bargain-basement mail-order place out of Waldron, Indiana, and they can probably set you up with a Traditions or CVA "Hawken" rifle of about the configuration you're looking for $200 to $300. I'd call them and ask for a catalogue; their number is 765-525-6181.

Happy hunting!

 

[Isiah1103]

I, too, like the Lymans GPR and I have the Hunter model (1:32 twist) in .50 cal. I shoots maxi-balls real well (3" at 75 yds) and shoots round balls about as well with 40-50 gr of powder. Nice shooting piece. It would be a great first gun.

 

[Runner]

Living in Missouri, you might consider the Tradition's Crockett for a first gun. Squirrel season runs most of the year, while deer season is three weeks.

 

[arcticap]

The Lyman Deerstalker is probably the closest to the Cabela's carbine.
There's several different models including stainless steel:
[url] http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000156033140[/url]

 

[shootemup]

Hey there kev,
Yer gettin' some pretty good advice here and I personally don't think you would regret getting a gun with a longer than 21" barrel.

Another thing to consider are the auction sites, like GunBroker and Auction Arms, especially if you don't mind buying used. Save you some money - T/C's are available for less than $300 most of the time and are in the same class as the Lyman guns.

If new is what you want, that Lyman GPR is hard to beat for the price.

Good luck, whatever you decide, and keep us posted on your progress. :hatsoff:

Spot

 

[J.D.]

I have been shooting muzzloaders for nearly 40 years, and I recommend that you buy the best gun you can afford.

If your budget in in the $400 range, the Lyman Great Plains Rifle is probably the best value you will find.

Marmotslayer's experience is typical of short barreled guns. It takes minimum of about a 28 inch barrel to burn a full hunting charge of black powder, so shorter barrels will not burn a hunting weight powder charge efficiently.

I would also suggest getting a 54 cal rifle. That's about all I shoot. Light loads work for samll game and heavier charges for deer.

Don't worry about recoil from larger caliber rifles. Both the 50 and 54 have about the same recoil and will perform equally well with the same powder charges. The larger ball hits harder though.

I commonly shoot 60 FFg in my 54 cal flint rifle for plinking, and 50 gr for small game. Larger game gets 90 gr FFG.
J.D.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Id rather buy parts over a few months and make a superior flintlock

 

[Robert an saa fan]

My suggestions are:

Consider second hand for your first rifle... you will learn a lot and if you change your mind and want something else you have less dollars lost on resale or trade.

Be sure to check out the free classifieds here on the forum. You could place a wanted ad.

Finally, have you been to gun shows? I have seen those Cabelas and non-Cabela's marked Sporterized Hawkens sell for $150 - $250 at gun shows. This for brand new ones.

At gun shows you may get a chance to handle quite a few different guns which helps also.

Best of luck however you decide. :thumbsup:

 

[Jac Spring]

Thompson Center Renegade - all American, quality.

Check this out: [url] http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=81363078[/url] (no, this is not my auction - just what came up when I did the search)

If you look around, you can find a very good used carbine for a lot less than $400.

IMHO, you would like this rifle for your intended use - the sights are excellent and fully adjustable. The lockwork is robust and they tend to be very accurate rifles with round balls and bullets. They'll even handle sabots (gasp) if you want to go that route.

I have one and its a great first muzzle loader and an excellent choice for deer hunting.

 

[shootemup]

Thompson Center Renegade - all American, quality.

Check this out: [url] http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=81363078[/url]

Kevthebassman, take note! This is exactly what I was talking about and would be an excellent buy if the rifle is as represented.

As O.S.O.K. said, this is an excellent choice for a first rifle and is great for deer hunting - I still have a couple of these guns myself and bought one for my son's first muzzleloader.

No, it's not my auction either, but it is a good find.

Again, good luck.

Spot

 

[Zonie]

With your preference for shorter guns, I would not recommend that you get a Great Plains Rifle as although they are excellent rifles, they are quite long and heavy.

While I don't see a big problem with the 21 inch barrel on your chosen gun, I do see a potential problem with what's in it.
Quoting from the ad: "...Twist is 1 in 24" barrel length is 21".

The twist of 1:24 is good only for elongated bullets and sabots.
While these will most certainly kill a deer, the bullets and/or sabots are quite expensive.

Barrels with this twist will not shoot patched roundballs with a heavy hunting powder load accurately.

As for my complaint with sabots and similar elongated bullets we have to think about costs.
At the low end, figure about $12 for 20 (60 cents each), at the high end, figure about $25 for 24 ($1.04 each).

Comparing this with a patched roundball at $12/100 or 8.3 cents each + patches at about $6/100 or 6 cents each for a total of 14.3 cents per shot and you can easily see that you can shoot over 4 times as many shots per dollar if you choose patched roundballs.
With black powder rifles and hunting, accuracy is the most important thing.
With the lower cost of the roundballs, you can easily afford to shoot enough shots to become throughly familiar with the gun and learn where it will hit at a number of distances. You will have a lot of fun in the process too.
At the ranges you mentioned, a patched .50 or .54 cal roundball will easily kill a deer as well as, if not better than the high priced sabots.

My advice if you want to buy from Cabela's would be their "Traditional Hawken Rifle"
TRADITIONAL HAWKEN

Not only is it about 60 bucks less expensive but it's 1:48 barrel twist will shoot both patched roundballs and conicals. The extra 8 inches of barrel length will burn the powder charges more efficiently and really won't add much to the overall weight of the gun.
I believe this gun is made by the same folks that make the Lyman Great Plains Rifles and the Deerstalker both of which are known for their value.

 

[bucktales]

Just checked Midsouth. $242 for a lyman trade in .50. That aint bad.

 

[boar]

I would go with Zonie. Dilly

 

[Rebel]

Have you seen him close up? Not sure i would want to go with him. In fact, i am sure i wouldn't. :rotf:

 

[Zonie]

Hold on thar!
Ain't no one a gonna go wit ole zonie sepptin Misses Zonie. :rotf:

 

[faw3]

Lot of good answers here, I'd think twice about that short barrel, and Ive got a 18"underhammer, but the Lyman Trade, or any of the others will do you good also you might do better with a longer barrel the length between the sights you know for really long 75 to 100 shoots. ALSO you dont need a dealer just call the seller and have him send it to you. Fred :hatsoff: