Couple of questions....

[kevthebassman]

Lots of good information here guys, many many thanks. Paycheck comes on the 5th, so I won't be buying anything right this second, but that Lyman Deerstalker definatly looks like a good compromise between a shorter gun and faster moving round.

That Thompson Renegade also looks nice, and really the all look pretty darn good. :grin: I really like those double set triggers too. I've shot one on a CZ centerfire before, and really liked the way those feel. That will definatly be a factor in what I pick.

Thanks to everyone, especially Zonie for your informative posts. I'll keep everybody posted on what I pick, and if I have any more questions I'll surely ask.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I have two Lyman Trade Rifles in .50 cal caplock. One for me & one for my Eagle Scout. At some clubs we shoot PRB's with .490 balls and pre-lubed pillow-ticking .018 patches, and at others we shoot the more expensive conicals (370 grain .50 cal. Maxi-Balls) that Zonie mentioned.

The secret is in the twist rate. If you are going to try a bunch of new things, then you might want a barrel with a twist of 1 turn in 48 inches. This will give you the chance to shoot both PRB's and the Maxi's with awesome accuracy for both: I hit a single seedless grape at 25 yards with a .490 PRB, and have cut a playing card in half (so has my Son) with the 370 grain Maxi's.

The Trade Rifle likes 70 grains of 3Fg Goex with either projectile, and I've chrono'd the 370 gr Maxi at 1347 feet per second. That's roughly the same power factor as a 20 ga. rifled slug, which has harvested many a Jersey whitetail deer!

A 21 inch barrel may be handy at times, but in my opinion, it's not long enough to burn enough powder to make 100 yard deer harvests realistic. And you're fighting a shorter sight radius to boot. The Trade Rifle has a 28 inch barrel and is a half-stock rifle, so it's just as easy to take-apart and clean as the shorter version, but will give better results.

Which ever rifle you get, have fun with it! And remember to get all of the other stuff to make your new hobby fun, safe and enjoyable!

All the best,

Dave

 

[Catof9tails]

Lots of good points given here. However, I would suggest that if you have the opportunity to shoot different types of ML's, it might help you make your decision.

I have the Cabelas, Lyman, TC, and Traditions. And like them all, but I do have my favorites. However, if I had the chance to shoot these types before my first purchase, I would have limited my choices to two of the four.

Just my opinion, Cat9

 

[feyx0006]

I absolutely agree w/ Zonie. I have the Cabela's Traditional Hawken, and I have been very pleased. With the help I have received from this forum, I have been able to achieve good accuracy with both conicals and roundballs. The rifle is really not that long. In fact, it is just a bit shorter than my shotgun is. Get the full-length version. It is very affordable and very user-friendly.

 

[haroldpotter]

If this is going to be a hunting gun I would recommend the T/C New Englander. Double set triggers are not designed for hunting and if you hunt in cold weather like we do here in Michigan, two triggers and gloves don’t go good together. Also the New Englander has a round and lighter weight barrel that is easier to hold up for offhand shots. It might not look as traditional but that don’t matter so much in the woods.

 

[Zonie]

The problem with the New Englander is they don't make them any more.

Although I think TCs guarentee will still cover them? finding a good one might be a problem.

As for the double set triggers, yes, there is not as much room inside the trigger guard in front of the real, front trigger, but this front trigger can be used without setting the rear trigger. The trigger pull is kinda heavy but that is what a lot of hunters use with their gloves on.

zonie

 

[bucktales]

Shop around. The Cabelas Hawkins and the Traderifle by Lyman at Midsouth are made by the same company with almost $100 price difference. I'd rather use the saved money for powder,balls and other equipment.

 

[playfarmers]

You are being pointed in the right direction for sure. I will add my voice to the Lyman Deerstalker or Trade rifle, I have both. I have been using a Deerstalker in .50 cal for the past 16 years and really like it, and I have now just got the Trade rifle in .54. I shoot round balls from both rifles and find them accurate. If I had to choose one it would be a .54 in eather rifle, probably lean to the Trade rifle.

 

[spottedpony]

I too shoot a .50 Cabella's Hawken, with the 1:48 twist. As i understand it, they are built by investarms, the same company that manufactures the lymans, & for the price its been a reliable and fun rifle to shoot.
I will note though, initially i did have to shim the (adjustable) rear sight a little as the tolerances on it were loose enough, it had a little play in it affecting accuracy somewhat. and you will find that with the 1:48 midrange powder charges seem to give the best accuracy. In mine at least 60 and 70 grains of FFG work the best, as does a .495 ball with an .018 patch. This is a fairly tight patch/ball combo and does require a pretty sharp rap on a short starter to get that combination started. I've also found, in this particular rifle, Remington caps shoot tighter groups than either CCI, or RWS caps do, with CCI magnums shooting the worst groups.
Though i shoot mainly Goex, ive also tried 777, as well as pyrodex, and it shoots all 3 well, though shows a preference for 777 and Goex. Pyrodex groups do open up a bit more than the other powders do. But like modern centerfire rifles, each one is a rule unto itself, & half the fun of shooting them is trying out various load combinations to find what shoots best. After all we all need an excuse to shoot more. :grin:

 

[nw_hunter]

I have a Thompson White Mountain Carbine with a short barrel, and fast twist. It loves patched round balls as well as conicals and sabots.This is in 50 cal.I see several for sale on gun auctions.Hard to go wrong with Thompson.
****************************************
The most wasted day of all is one in which we have
not laughed.

 

[Walks with fire]

I think you should check out RMC Sports online store. I bought one of their flintlocks last year and they are fine shooters. The gun has a laminated stock, L&R waterproof lock, nice comfortable trigger, 1/28" twist, fiber optics open sights, removable breech plugs, and are 50 caliber. These are hunters guns and not something you would want to take to a rendezvous.

These rifles shoot saboted rounds really well, and conicals real well if they are over 400 grains. The lighter conicals group under 4" at 75 yards but the heavy ones will do better than that. I have both the 28" and 24" barrels for the same stock. I use the shorter one when I am doing drives with large groups because it is light and very accurate with the .452 xtp Hornady pistol bullet in an mmp sabot. This 24" barrel will also shoot a .017 Wal-Mart pillow ticked patched .495 roundball with 80 grains of Goex into less than 2" at 50 yards all day long. I don't know why but the 28" barrel does not seem to group roundballs well (I think it would with a .500 ball but I have not tried them yet) The 250 grain xtp groups around 2-2.5" at 100 with 90 grains of 2f. Probably around 800 ft.pd. at the target. The 28" barrel gets 100-110 grains of 2f with a 300 grain xtp; it will group under 3" at 100 and hits with around 1100 ft.pd. at 100. The recommended velocity of the xtp .452 is 750-1700 ft per sec. They hit come out at 1650-1550 and reach 100 yards at about 1100 to 1200 ft. per second--just perfect. Took a deer last year at 75 yards with a 300 grainer and it was down and out right now.

The xtp's are are around a quarter a piece when purchased in 50 or 100 round boxes. The sabots are about .15 cents a piece. A shot minus the powder is .40 cents vs. a dime or so for round balls. My 24" barrel loves roundballs and they are good to practice with. I have some 1/66 twist TC roundball guns as well; They are PA Hunters with 21" and 31" barrels. They are both good shooters as well but because a roundball is so light the shorter roundball guns should be used at the shorter range. My carbine TC is sighted 1" high at 50 and will drill the center of the target out in short order. The .495 180 grain roundball would probably yeild around 800 ft.pds at 50 yards with 90 grains of 2f. That's about the max. of powder that will burn is such a short barrel and then it better be a snug fit load.

If I were wanting a roundball carbine of say 24" I would build one and make it at least .54(210gr.) or a .58(280gr.) There are some faster twist carbines like the 1/48 twist Lyman Deerstalker that would work pretty good. The thing is with roundballs you need some barrel length or keep your shots short.

I know plastic and modern bullets are a little off target but the RMC is a flintlock and I really like the rifle.

 

[varanus]

Bought my renegade off of gunbroker, didn't even look like it was ever fired. no flash marks around the nipple. No powder residue at all. if it ever was fired, it was cleaned by somene far better than i could ever do it. Gunbroker has great deals.

 

[kevthebassman]

For whatever reason, I just really don't like the look of laminated stocks at all.

Could anyone tell me what you gain from shooting sabots vs just round balls? I'm guessing just the extra weight? And what would be a good all-purpose twist rate, say if I wanted to shoot round balls for practice/fun and then be able to switch to sabots for hunting?

 

[arcticap]

Could anyone tell me what you gain from shooting sabots vs just round balls? I'm guessing just the extra weight? And what would be a good all-purpose twist rate, say if I wanted to shoot round balls for practice/fun and then be able to switch to sabots for hunting?

Bullets offer better penetration & are more aerodynamic, and they might also be more accurate with a heavier powder charge than patched round balls are when fired out of a medium twist barrel.

A 1 in 48 inch medium twist will usually shoot both PRB's and sabots well, as long as the saboted bullets are of a medium weight and not too long. A bullet of medium weigh and length is usually about 240-250 grains.

 

[Zonie]

If one is thinking of shooting a sabot with a 240-250 grain pistol bullet in it they need to be careful about their selection of bullets.

Many pistol bullets are designed for maximum expansion at the lower velocities pistols often have. Cases where the bullet, when fired from a muzzleloader at its higher velocity, actually blew up with very little penetration on the deer have been observed.

Roundballs on the other hand penetrate deer in a predictable way and don't blow up so, there are times that having a lot of velocity and downrange energy isn't always best.

zonie

 

[kevthebassman]

I'll definatly have to keep that in mind.

As for the double set triggers, I'm still thinking I'll look for one with them. I've hunted coyotes with a CZ that had a double set without any problems, and I don't wear bulky gloves anyway.

 

[ldykeman]

I hunt with my T/C Renegades and both have set triggers. Unlike many, I adjusted the pull weight (after setting the trigger) to where I can put my finger on the trigger and apply light pressure without it going off. I don't have a scale, but adjusted it where it goes off just as I apply reasonable (for me) increased pressure. I have seen these adjusted to the point where they go off just by putting finger contact on the trigger, and that's not for me. Also, I always ditch my glove to take a shot while hunting no matter what kind of firearm I am using, or how cold it may be. I just can't get the feel of any trigger with insulated gloves on. So, I like using the set trigger every time I shoot, whether at the range or hunting.
Larry

 

[Wes/Tex]

Could anyone tell me what you gain from shooting sabots vs just round balls? I'm guessing just the extra weight? And what would be a good all-purpose twist rate, say if I wanted to shoot round balls for practice/fun and then be able to switch to sabots for hunting?

The only advantage with conicals is penetration. If you intend to break down any dangerous animals, the conicals shine. If you want better expansion for lung/heart hits, go with the round ball. Recent extensive tests show the balls are much better killers unless deep penetration to break shoulder joints are needed for critters that bite back.

 

[Walks with fire]

The roundball is very effective at taking deer size game because black powder generates enough velocity to expand the pure lead but not so much that it doesn't over expand. I feel that for deer hunting the .54 ball is the best size. Barrel leading is not a problem because of the patch.

The problem with bullets when used with black powder is that top velocity is around 15-1600 ft.per second with 250-300 grain bullets. Cappers can use 777 and Pyrodex to increase velocity a bit more but you can't use them in flintlocks. I don't care for the inline rifles, mine are all flintlocks. Most of these bullets are made for inline rifles with stronger/faster powders and won't expand at real black velocities. Some pistol bullets ( Hornady is a good one ) expand down to 750 fps. and can be pushed to over 1700 and still stay together. Some of the Noslers, Barnes etc. need 1100-1400 fps. to start expansion. Impact velocity at 100 yards will be around 11-1200. Keep in mind that expansion or not it is still a .452 hole in your deer and that is good. So bullet selection is important. Bullets will impact the 100 yard targets with around double the energy of the roundball of similar weight because they have a higher bc. and hold more of their starting speed.

Roundballs are great and bullets don't provide much of an advantage and they require faster twist barrels to use them. I do believe you would be happy with a 28" barreled 1/70 twist .54 caliber rb shooter and perhaps look into a swap barrel of faster twist for conicals and saboted bullets. That's what I have and it works for me.

As far as twist rates go for roundball guns most are in 1/66 or 1/70 range. Some of the people like slower yet and some have said the 1/56 twist would be ideal for the .54 caliber. I am not real knowledgeable about rb twists and information about experiments and testing of different twists and groove depths is very difficult to find. The 1/48 twist is supposed to be good for everything; providing reasonable performance with ball;conical and even sabots. 1/28 twist seems to work well with sabots and the heaviest conicals but does not shoot the lighters ones very well in my testing. Barrel twists, groove depths and projectile selection is not an easy topic. Some people have a lot of specialization in these areas and perhaps they may comment.

 

[kevthebassman]

Thompson Center Renegade - all American, quality.

Check this out: [url] http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=81363078[/url]

Kevthebassman, take note! This is exactly what I was talking about and would be an excellent buy if the rifle is as represented.

As O.S.O.K. said, this is an excellent choice for a first rifle and is great for deer hunting - I still have a couple of these guns myself and bought one for my son's first muzzleloader.

No, it's not my auction either, but it is a good find.

Again, good luck.

Spot

Well, I went for a TC Renegade, but I found an even better deal....

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=81359693#PIC

$131.07 plus $25 for shipping for a .50 TC Renegade. Looks like some scope bases put a little wear right on top of the barrel where it was drilled and tapped, but that's nothing that can't be touched up.

Thanks for all the help guys, you were instrumental in helping me make a choice, and I saved a whole bunch of money and got a better rifle to boot! Now I'll have to find a starting point for loads, etc.