Cover of May-June, '17 Muzzleloader

[tenngun]

If you look close st the painting you can see the edge of the ankle piece where it lays across the vamp, then the ties falling from the front.
On apache boots vamp and ankle are one piece or like a hard sole moccasins or twopiece upper sewed together, where in the painting you can see a unsewed flap.

 

[Black Hand]

Claude,
I am familiar with the moccasins. I was curious as to this "Taos Shoe" Tenngun was referring to, as his post suggested it was different from the moccasin...
Thanks,
Albert

 

[Nativearizonan]

They appear to have the soles of Apache moccasins (that odd extension at the toe), but the soles are too thick and the rest of the footwear looks like a Brogan (the seam at the instep and the laces). If they are Apache moccasins, they are not very well/accurately replicated...

Are those not typical Taos Shoes? They look like the shoes shown in mountain man sketch book, with the brush toe exttention

Was a "brush toe extension" mentioned or shown in the sketch book?

 

[tenngun]

No, but we see it on peublo and apache, so it was known in the region, should you make them just a little longer then your foot you get a similar result.

 

[Nativearizonan]

No, but we see it on peublo and apache, so it was known in the region, should you make them just a little longer then your foot you get a similar result.

I wasn't aware it was found on Pueblo moccasins. (I hate to use this phrase, but) Do you have a source for that statement?

 

[tenngun]

Only the ones I saw growing up, and I always made mine with an rise on the toe' they just seemed to walk better.
What term do you prefer for peublo?
When I grew up the ruins around me were Anasazi. The word means ancient enemy. So now I see ancesterol peublo. We have what a dozen or so people that shared a similar culture.

 

[Nativearizonan]

So, you saw tab toes on moccasins when you were growing up? If it is something you saw as a young person, it could just represent the recent Pow-Wow get togethers, as well as other common interest meetings that all Native Americans attend and might be causing a more recent trade in styles and fashions. I am open to any period mention of the odd looking square tabs, which are basically an extension of the hard sole. I haven't seen it being linked to any other group than the Apache.

As far as the basic moccasin style, there is an obvious similarity between the typical Pueblo styles and those of the Athabaskan peoples (Navajo and Apache), hard soles, and both sometimes wear calf or leg high moccasins as well; but it seems the large rectangular tab toe has always been attributed to the Apache, in everything I have seen.

I'm fine with the general term Pueblo to describe the several language groups that lived in the same kind of multi-family structures, both historical and prehistorical. They were different people, and often kept their different identity, and even different languages, such as the Tewa have done in the Hopi villages, but they also intermarry and understand and respect each others religious and cultural differences. Mainly, they all live or lived in large apartment like houses, which sets them apart from most Native American groups. The social structure they maintained to do that was not something required by those folks who could just pack up their tipi and start out on a different trail than the others when camp was struck.

A lot of folks refer to the Apache and Navajo as Athabaskans, which is the language group those people belong to. They were more nomadic, more solitary, and supposed newcomers to the area. The also did not live in Pueblos. Other tribes in the SW spoke dialects from either the Uto-Aztecan, or Tanoan language groups. The Pueblo tribes all spoke dialects from one of these two language families, in everyday affairs; but none of the Puebloans spoke an Athabaskan dialect, as an everyday language.

Of the two Athabaskan groups, the Navajos lived more closely to the Pueblo tribes and raided the Pueblos regularly for wives, which probably resulted in a lot of the similarity between Navajo and Pueblo culture and clothing; but I still would not consider the Navajo to be Pueblo.

 

[tenngun]

Well personally I think these are Taos shoes and not peublo hard sole moccasins. All the pair I've made had an upturn toe as it was just easier :idunno: it may be a pow wow to peublo moccasins.
I have found in my study of native people that living in an area was more important to language roots. However religion is harder to change. I see more similarity from Din'e people from Alaska to Texas then I see between Navaho/aphace and peublo people's, but some peublo believes did influence southern Din'e. In the end Blackfoot are more like plains Indians then Algonquin, and Narragansett's more like north east tribes then Sioux on the plains.
I think these are Taos shoes, due to the fact that the ankle piece seems loose from the vamp, and the ties are centered. We should keep in mind that this is a modern painting and not a period painting, and might be a guideline but not a source for an HC outfit. Shoes or hard soles moccasins may or may not have had an upturned tie.

 

[Billnpatti]

....But, that door he is leaning against looks superimposed and crooked.

To my eye, it appears that he is leaning against an open door. The door is hung with long hinges that allow it to lean. I think the artist painted an accurate representation of what he saw. It may look odd but I think it is accurate.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Many Thanks to all who responded directly to this eastern smokepolin' codger's inquiry. In all seriousness, it was a real education for me and a very worthwhile time at that.

It's knowledge from the brothers on this forum that has meant so much to me for so long and I do genuinely appreciate it.

Thanks again.

 

[jgatliff]

You got it right, they are Taos shoes, not moccasins. Michael (Agee) made the shoes himself and was wearing them when several of us went to the Fur Trade Symposeum at Bent's Fort a couple f years back. If I recall correctly Michael believes that the moccasins were influenced by the shoes, not vice-versa.

The background of the painting is from a picture took of Michael while we were at Bent's Fort.

Jason Gatliff
MUZZLELOADER magazine

Well personally I think these are Taos shoes and not peublo hard sole moccasins. All the pair I've made had an upturn toe as it was just easier :idunno: it may be a pow wow to peublo moccasins.
I have found in my study of native people that living in an area was more important to language roots. However religion is harder to change. I see more similarity from Din'e people from Alaska to Texas then I see between Navaho/aphace and peublo people's, but some peublo believes did influence southern Din'e. In the end Blackfoot are more like plains Indians then Algonquin, and Narragansett's more like north east tribes then Sioux on the plains.
I think these are Taos shoes, due to the fact that the ankle piece seems loose from the vamp, and the ties are centered. We should keep in mind that this is a modern painting and not a period painting, and might be a guideline but not a source for an HC outfit. Shoes or hard soles moccasins may or may not have had an upturned tie.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Thanks for chiming in Jason and clearing up any confusion.... :thumbsup: